Episode #40: Polyamory Therapy, Relationship Anarchy, Biblical Interpretation and the Fallacy of Patriarchy with Heidi Savell, LCSW, Polyamory Therapist

INTRODUCTION:

Heidi Savell, (she/her) is a therapist, coach, and educator who has been working with polyamorous people for almost a decade. She believes that polyamory can be a satisfying and empowering relationship model and is passionate about helping folks get the most out of their relationships.

Through her own polyamory journey, she has developed strategies to help you move from anxiety and distress to empowerment and fulfillment in your relationships.

 

INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·      A Look Into the World of Polyamory

·      Is “Meaningless” Sex Harmful to Us?

·      Thinking About Why We Think What We Think

·      Is Monogamy Right for You?

·      I Give Honor to the Bloodline of Abraham

·      A Caution With Regard to Biblical Interpretation

·      The Fallacy of Patriarchy

·      Polyamory Therapy

·      Relationship Anarchy

·      Jealousy in Relationships

·      Coming Out as Polyamorous

 

CONNECT WITH HEIDI:

 

Website: https://www.shelovesradically.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shelovesradically/

HEIDI’S RECOMMENDATIONS:

FetLife: https://fetlife.com
Discord: https://discord.com

 

CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON:

 

Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com
YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM
Facebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com

DE’VANNON’S RECOMMENDATIONS:

·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)

https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370

TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs

 

·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com

·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net

·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org

·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org

INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:

·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.

https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon

 

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00]

You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Hello hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. So thankful and excited to have you with me again this week today, I’m talking with Heidi Savell. And this beautiful woman is a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in polyamory coaching therapy and education. So in this episode, we’re going to take a look into the world of polyamory.

We’re going to talk about whether or not meaningless sex is harmful to us. We get into the fallacy of patriarchy. We talk about [00:01:00] jealousy and relationship. And then we talk about coming out as polyamorous. I had never heard of that before, and I was the most intrigued to learn about this particular topic.

Heidi is a strong woman she’s fiery and feisty, and I’m so happy to present her to the world. Heidi. Hi, Fran was the T I R N BI.

Heidi: Hi, so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. 

De’Vannon: Yeah. Welcome to the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast where Jesus in the building. Y’all and so his Dick and pussy and calm and all the other good things we’re going to talk about today. Now I’m here with miss Heidi Seville. She gets eight, a licensed clinical social worker and LCSW, my favorite aspect of the mental health field or the [00:02:00] LCSW.

That’s what I have. Myself that I talked to one every week. I recommend some sort of mental health professional to each and every last one of us souls, because we get fucked up in life in ways that we’re may not be aware of. I think mental health is a great asset to your personal wellbeing, self care play in.

And so how does them talk about this from a very unique angle today? She has a focus on polyamorous relationships and things like that. And so tell us a little bit about like your history and everything like that, girlfriend.

Heidi: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Where do I start? So gosh, I’m going to sound like such a cliche, but I totally came to the world of polyamory in like such a cliched way I was like in a marriage. That wasn’t totally And we were like, you know, [00:03:00] like this isn’t quite working. We were able to like, identify that we were really meeting each other’s needs.

when we got down to talking about it, we were like, you know, neither one of us totally is 100% like into monogamy. Like that’s not really a core value for us. So why don’t we explore beyond. And we had a whole progression of ways. We did it. It started with like visiting sex clubs and doing kind of that swinger thing.

And that, that didn’t didn’t, I didn’t love that. I’m going to be honest sex with strangers. Totally great. For a lot of people, it’s not my jam. I really wanted the emotional connection, the intimacy piece and like just developing like connection and care with folks. And I wasn’t getting that in the whole sex with strangers.

See, so we decided to look into polyamory, which is different in that it [00:04:00] involves romance. It involves love, it involves lasting connections with other folks. And so that’s, that’s kind of the, the doorway that was the doorway for me that I entered through to start learning about the whole whole world of polyamory.

De’Vannon: I can just hear the a Latin theme song, a whole new world, and the 

Heidi: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: view, a whole new well.

Heidi: Yes. Oh my gosh. When, so when I first got started, it was like when I would talk to people about it. So we started like going to some educational groups and discussion groups and reading all the books. And I remember telling a friend that it was like, it was like I had been going to the same restaurant, my whole life and ordering off the menu.

And all of a sudden I discovered that there was like a foldout page in the middle that it like folded open. And there was all these other things on the [00:05:00] menu that like I never knew were there because like I never bothered to like flip, open the menu and see the little fold-out insert inside. So it was very much that whole new world vibe for me in a, in a big way to get that started.

De’Vannon: I appreciate your desire to. Have the connection. That’s kind of like what they call a demisexual these days. It’s like somebody who prefer to have sex with someone. They are acknowledging the emotional in, you know, spiritual, the unseen, the non-physical things that tie us to people when we copulate and we fuck and everything like that.

I don’t think that those things ever go away. I just think some people choose to ignore them during, you know, for their own reasons and stuff like that. And I’m not saying that’s good or bad. Is it surface level, surface level? Absolutely. But that’s what they want it to be. 

Heidi: Sure. 

De’Vannon: So I have my own evolving thoughts and theories on [00:06:00] whether or not we’re actually damaging ourselves when we.

Hookup with people we don’t know deny the emotional knowledgement of the emotional and the mental connection that comes along with that, because that’s a part of who we are. Like, you can’t really turn your emotions off. You can, you can deep, deep detach from them to go and have certain experiences, you can’t get rid of them.

Heidi: Right. 

Yeah. 

De’Vannon: So I’m wondering are, you know, are we hurting ourselves we have this? What some many people like to call them meaningless sex and they view it as like they’re freeing themselves somehow, I guess. But, you know, I wonder if, and I don’t know the answer to this yet himself molding it over. I’m still researching shit.

I’ll probably write a blog on it, but I just wonder, I just wonder what, what do you think about that?

Heidi: I mean, I think that?

I think that like I think there is room to have. [00:07:00] Casual sex. I think you’re, I did with you that like, if we call it meaningless sex, I think that it doesn’t honor the experience. But cause I think even casual sex, even sex with a stranger, if that is something that, that, you know, you happen to be into can be meaningful.

And so I think it’s, it’s less like, do you have sex with strangers? Do you have people that you have a deep, emotional connection with and more like, you regard every sexual experience as something shared as a form of intimacy? Even if it’s a brief moment of sharing with someone you’re never going to see again, but still like, are you open to and being influenced by and are you open to tapping into the emotional experience and to the intimacy that comes like sharing sexual energy with another human.

De’Vannon: I concur in at a lot of people who get into the whole casual sex thing and be like, well, I’m not going to marry everyone. I [00:08:00] fuck. Well, what we know that, but that doesn’t mean it has to be meaningless all together. You know, there’s somewhere in between there, you know?

Heidi: Right. Well, and I think that gets into this whole idea of like, what do we, what do we count as meaningful? And I think in the world of compulsory heterosexuality and in the world of compulsory monogamy, there’s this idea that the only thing that counts, or the only thing that’s meaningful is something that results in like or kids or, you know, a long-term relationship.

And, and that, I think really discounts a lot of people’s connections and a lot of people’s experiences that are still meaningful without like know, ending, resulting in those like those markers of success.

De’Vannon: Right. So what you’re saying, Heidi is that we’ve been pre-programmed by society conservative churches and all kinds of stuff like that, to believe that the [00:09:00] only sort of thing that has any meaning has to be like your typical. Family unit or some kind of shit or whatever the fuck is supposed to be like considered normal and stuff like that.

And so anything other than that, okay. I could see that I could see that. then we wouldn’t have to really, really talk through this, this to to bring value all things, because my take is this. We all have certain amount of limited number of minutes, seconds, hours in our lifetime per day. If we want to make it more granule So you’re going to decide what’s important to you to go in and do so if you’re going to go and fuck a stranger for 30 minutes or an hour, you know that there’s, that’s 30 minutes or an hour that you cannot get back. And so, as opposed to going to do with countless other things, you make your choice. But where the fuck are you going to do?

 So what was it that’s so important about this experience with this stranger that you’re willing to give up 30 minutes or an hour of your life. And then, and that’s fine if that’s what you want to do, this is what you want to do. But then for [00:10:00] someone to come away from that and say, well, that didn’t mean anything.

Or, you know, I’m like, oh bitch. But it did because you gave them your time, which is the one of the few resources that you can never get back. So, you know, you can’t make it, you can’t, you can’t create more time. And so it’s a wonder, people are not running from the truth within themselves or a bunch of different reasons.

And I know that we’re probably not going to answer that specifically on this show today because everybody has a different answer to that question. I just want to pose these talking points so that people can begin to consider why they’re doing what they’re doing and why they believe what they believe and why they’ve been describing it the way they describe it.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Like, that’s like in the work that I do, it’s like a lot of when I work with clients, it’s around, like, let’s look at these default assumptions that you have been handed by society by, you know, your parents or your school or your church or wherever. And like, [00:11:00] let’s see, do these really even fit for you?

Are these what you want? Like do these align with your own core values and beliefs and, and in the world of non-monogamy. In breaking down the the kind of blueprint or the norms or the things we’ve been handed. One of the things that we talk about is something called the relationship escalator.

And so that’s this, this prescribed way that we’ve all been taught, that relationships should go so that they should escalate in a certain order on a certain timeline. And it’s, it looks something like, all right, you meet, you have sex. You fall in, love, you move in together, get married, know, depending on your level of privilege, maybe right by property.

Maybe you have an, a chair, an animal, maybe you, you know, have kids, whatever it.

might be. And that, is what like a meaningful, committed progress, progressing relationship. It’s [00:12:00] got to go in that order, along that escalator. if it doesn’t. And it doesn’t actually, it’s not really serious or it’s not meaningful or it doesn’t count, or it’s not the real thing.

And I think that in non-monogamy, it’s starting to like break that down and be like, Well now wait a minute. What if I meet the love of my life and, you know, decide that I want to be with this person forever, but actually I really dig living alone and I, I never want to move in with them. I’d like to stay living alone for the rest of my life.

Does that mean that relationship is less meaningful? that mean that we’re not committed or, you know, let’s say I meet someone and we get married but we still want to keep falling in love with other people and having other relationships. Does that mean that what we have is a committed, but it’s not meaningful.

I think in non-monogamy what we say is like, absolutely not. It doesn’t mean any of those.

De’Vannon: Well that’s because y’all are coming from a more liberated mindset and I’m [00:13:00]hearing all the religious undertones and what, and what’s your, what you’re saying? Cause like the concept that like you must live together, you know, comes from like, you know how people use to shame people back in the day, you know, if a guy got a girl pregnant and they weren’t married, they weren’t living together.

Then, you know, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, you know, but you know, so, but I’m, I’m happy that in your work you’re working through working with people to challenge again why they believe what they believe. So in my research view you, aside from being an LCSW, you offer like coaching. I saw a small group coaching, individual coaching couples coaching.

Tell me about this coaching.

Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. So the main thing I do is this small group coaching.

My program is called steady your poly wobbles. And it’s for folks who are newer to polyamory, are like, are wobbling, who are feeling wobbly, who are like, I want to be doing [00:14:00] this, but holy shit is this hard. I’m like, you know, struggling with either the shame or the assumptions or the jealousy or the stigma that’s coming from my community.

When I try to talk about what my relationships look like. And it’s a small group setting where we go through week by week, all of those challenges break them down and talk about how to work through them and talk about this tools and skills that work for folks, and really start to unpack, like how can you do this in an authentic way that feels grounded and feels like, and how do you shed some of that stigma, some of that shame, some of that conditioning that tells you, oh, well, if this person has sex with me, but then have some sex with someone else, then that must be a betrayal.

Or that means they don’t love me as much. Or that means I’m not good enough for something like that. And really unpacking that and starting to break that down and being like, now, wait a minute, where did we learn that? And [00:15:00] is that, is that necessarily true? And, and some of it too is like Speaking to the religious piece.

I mean, I grew up Jewish, but you know, we’ve got our own, we’ve got our own stuff around, like Different ways that that shame gets baked in, you know, but, but within religion, I think there’s so many ways that monogamy gets elevated, right? Specifically heterosexual monogamy as like, this is the pillar of the community.

This is what things should look like. And if you don’t do this, then you’re not like fulfilling your mission, your goal in life, you know, you’re not serving your purpose. And I think it’s just so limiting for so many.

De’Vannon: Speaking of being Jewish. Another thing that I’m researching deeply now and probably will do a blog about what most certainly we do have a blog about it is, you know, exactly like parameters. If like, if you’re going to be talking about Galway or the Hebrew, [00:16:00] God, know, like what, you know, how the sex life jive with proper course of righteousness live good on this earth and still be able to get into heaven, to something that plays a lot of people’s minds and it’s a juxtaposition, a contradiction, I don’t know what the hell you would want to call it in between how open relationship to people where in the old Testament how the relationships kind of really aren’t talked about that much in the new Testament.

And conservatives really the conservative people like to go into the old Testament and get everything to corral and control people with 

Heidi: Hm. 

De’Vannon: like whatever kind of scripture you ever, you want to of the something that’s supposedly against homosexuality or whatever, but then they don’t talk about the more liberal stuff, like say all the wives say king David had and all of his concubines and stuff like that.

And so all the wives the forefathers had, you know, they had plenty of fussy, you know, them at all fucking, [00:17:00] and so there’s somebody asked me, we know, what does God say? Is it cool for me to have two wives, two husbands, a four way marriage or whatever? First thing I’m going to tell everybody is, you know, pray the Lord will tell you what he does and doesn’t want you to do as long as you’re actually truly approaching him to correct you the way he wants to.

But above anything, any of us are going to tell you, you know, hear from him first. And then secondly, well, we just have to, I don’t know yet because I have to go through and see, you know, you know, I’m really, really researching. Cause there’s certain times when people did something sexual and maybe it was bad.

And, but then you hear a lot of talk about like prostitution and everything like that. And that’s usually always might’ve been a negative, but then you turn around and there’s like 2,300 Ys in 2000 concubines. So clearly it’s not, it’s not that black and white and so, oh no, no. You think.

Heidi: I mean, I think about it a little [00:18:00] differently and I don’t, you know, and maybe part of it is because I come from a different religious background and maybe part of it is because, I mean, I’ve always been a bit of a rebel. So even when I was a kid at Hebrew school, I was like my instructors. I was poking holes in the arguments.

And I was like pointing out what I saw as like the deep sexism that I felt like was part of the Judaism as it was taught to me. But I look back on those stories and I think like, wow, how convenient that it was always like the men having lots and lots of waves, but it’s never the women having lots and lots of husbands.

And like, in some ways I think to that, and I’m like, you know, that feels like it’s really reinforcing a lot of the like patriarchal pieces. That really keep men in a position of power. And, and I think that what I love so much about modern day polyamory is [00:19:00] it subverts a lot of that and wants to be a lot of, a lot of polyamory, not all polyamory, some of it can be kind of toxic, but a lot of it is around like unpacking that and being like, how can this be feminist?

How can this be? Anti-capitalist how can this really step outside of the patriarchal mold and do something a little different.

De’Vannon: I was thinking about that earlier, because I was in, when I always challenged people in their like interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. I always like to call it the Hebrew Bible because unlike say like Republicans and evangelicals and shit, try to act like it’s actually not our book. You know, we didn’t create it.

It comes from the middle east east, you know, and I think my honors should be paid to the bloodline of Abraham. You know, it’s all about boils down to how it all ends of the book of revelation. Everything’s about the bloodline of Abraham really. And the rest of us are fortunate enough to be, have access to the same God, but it is [00:20:00] not really our religion.

And so therefore when people come to me, you know, trying to say this and that, you know all that. Yeah, but you probably haven’t even read their Aramaic or the Hebrew or the Greek or anything like that. Most people don’t at thousands of translations of the Bible, quote, unquote translation, you know, is what most people use to try to preach from, or to try to tell other people how to live their lives.

But not, you know, they’re not even reading the Bible in its original language and for all the talk against, you know, the Torah, you know, the different other religions out there at least, you know, people like say, read other religious texts, you know, read it in its original language. And I have all the respect for Eastern cultures for keeping shit as like pure in its essence, as it was the Bible is very diluted.

And one thing that I. That I’ve started saying a lot lately is, you know, we were not [00:21:00]represented, you know, old, conservative men in the Bible. You know, they didn’t invite American Indians and women in black people in to S LGBTQ or people to the table. When the Bible was first in term was translated and everything, they didn’t have us lay in on that.

You just had a bunch of fucking white men doing what they do, try and control everything. And what you’re saying, you know, that’s how come there is no women with a bunch of husbands. It’s not to say it didn’t happen back then, but they’re not going to want that shit in recorded history.

Heidi: Great. Great. And like, you know, I think that anytime you translate something, it’s translated through the lens of the person who’s like reading it. And if these are like conservative white men doing it, then yes. Like it’s going to be translated through their lens and it’s probably going to you know, the way they see it or the way they want it to be.

And you’re absolutely Right. Like, if there’s any mention of things that go [00:22:00] against that, like, you know, patriarchal tradition, that’s probably going to get left out.

De’Vannon: Right. They’re not having none of that because that removes their controls and it breaks down their construct of how they eat believe shit should be. And we see that happening before our very eyes with our own government, you know? That will say on January 6th, you know, Republicans, it wasn’t an interaction that was just a friendly day at the Capitol.

You know, they are willing people with that mindset, just the same as always through the history of time. We’ll rewrite history right in front of your eyes because they believe people are stupid. It’s a large part of why I do what I do. And unfortunately, a lot of people are fucking stupid. Not because they’re necessarily born that way, but because they don’t want to research the knowledge that is so readily available at their fingertips is much easier to just let a preacher tell you what to think or to let fucking Fox news tell you what to think when you can just go and find the shit out on your own.

And so I, so I’m not saying all of this, we’re not saying all of this to [00:23:00] necessarily, so this seeds of discord, but we are sowing seeds of free thought. And I’m, I’m, I’m trying to pull you off of the titties of your preachers and your pastors, because you don’t really need them as much as you think you do, and, and politicians and everything like that.

So, you know, I really, really want people to think for themselves and to research for themselves. And there’s so much freedom in that, you know, which is what you’re doing in your work. Now, tell me about, I also noticed that you are, you have a queer and transgender inclusivity policy. So I want to make that clear that you work with all the peoples.

Now, why is inclusion, inclusivity so important to you, Heidi?

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. So, so the way that I really approach polyamory is that I believe that it is structure that but it’s about consent. [00:24:00] It’s about love. It’s about honoring people in for their authentic selves. And I think it is about disrupting patriarchal traditions. And I think polyamorous polyamory at its best disrupts that.

And in patriarchal traditions, I think queer folks and trans folks get a race, you know, and they they’re either erased through violence or through negligence or through just ignoring their existence. And. I think that polyamory because it exists within, you know, we exist within the society that we’re in it.

We have to be careful not to let it fall into, especially as it enters more into the mainstream, not to let it fall into those old traditions where it’s dominated by, you know, CIS straight white folks who are like the only ones being represented, because that’s, when I think [00:25:00] about what polyamory really is about, that’s not what it’s about.

It’s about there being space for different types of relationships and connections and love as long as there’s consent. And so I think it’s so important that we don’t, we don’t erase the existence or the experiences of trans and queer folks and that we love. All of that be, you know, we, we make space explicitly to honor that and, you know, as someone I identify as queer.

And so I am very sensitive to, if there is like a space and, you know, unfortunately it happens even within the polyamory community where suddenly it’s just this like assumption of heterosexuality, not as often, but it can. And I’m very sensitive to that because I think because polyamory is such a, has the potential to be such a subversive space and so disruptive to that norm, that it’s so important that we make sure that we are intentionally carving out space [00:26:00] for all those experiences.

And not just the ones that, you know, patriarchal capitalist society wants to elevate. 

De’Vannon: Hmm, well, knowledge is power. And as the Bible says, people perish for lack of knowledge,

but we were going to get our heads filled with some good shit. Now, I want you to tell me by a good client success story and that you can give me names and details and all of that because of patient confidentiality. But I’m hoping that you can give me an example of somebody who came to you one way.

I’d like to know whatever they’re fucked up, certain scenario or circumstance or problem was. And after you’ve coached them, worked with them counseling. How they came out better. The other end,

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. So oh, let’s see. Trying to think of which one, which one to go with.

De’Vannon: think about a girl sip, some of that tea you got in that cup [00:27:00] and she’s got this huge cause big ass red cup. It looks like it’s about a foot tall with her, a little tea Tablo hanging out. The end of it

Heidi: I don’t mess around with my T. 

De’Vannon: does feel some tea today, honey.

Heidi: Okay. So I had one person Come to me who had been in like a series of serially, monogamous relationships, just like one monogamous relationship after another, felt ended up feeling really like controlled and resentful in each of them and would like end them and then kind of pop right back into another one and then be in that relationship and write it out. for that first year of honeymoon phase.

And then start to feel really like controlled and resentful and like, Having to make a lot of like concessions for her partners, ego or things like that, You know, in with them and them feeling really confined. And so [00:28:00] when I started working with this person, they were in a relationship, but really that cycle of feeling burnt out on it and they ended the relationship and did a lot of work around, like, what are your core values when it comes to your own identity, when it comes to your relationships, what you want.

And, and this person really discovered that they wanted to explore the world of non-monogamy that, that, because for them, social relationships were so important to them. And because they. Wanted their independence and autonomy that the traditional structure of oh, you fall in love with someone you move in and then like, they become your, your top priority.

And everyone else’s just like there, they w they wanted to disrupt that. th that wasn’t working for them. And so they chose kind of a kind of non-monogamy, that’s [00:29:00] called relationship anarchy, which is about it gets away from the idea of, oh, we prioritize our romantic relationships above our friend relationships and says, like, we’re doing a way with those priorities.

Like, my connections are all valuable. And I decide how much I want to prioritize them based on, you know, a lot of other factors, not based just on, is this someone I’m having sex with, or is this someone I live with? And so. This person started really exploring, like, you know, dating. And we talked about, well, who do you want to date?

And how do you want to date? And what does it mean to you to have a relationship escalate? And they realized, yeah, you know, I don’t think I want to move in with someone. like that’s not actually important to me. And so, you know, they started beating and saying to people, Hey, I like you. I care about you. I want to foster this connection.

And like, I’m not going to [00:30:00] want to move in. And they started really making more time for their friends to where as they started exploring and getting into different relationships, they were able to maintain those friendships in the same level. And then we worked through stuff like jealousy. Like the first time they were dating someone who let’s say it was like also dating someone else then came to me and said like, gosh, like I know that I said, I believed in this and I do, but like, holy shit, there’s a lot of jealousy coming up for me.

How do I deal with that? So we really worked at like, unpacking that and breaking that down and looking at like, okay, what is jealousy really? And, and I actually have a mini course that folks go to my website. They can check it out it’s for free. So it’ll just be on my website. Yeah, I can talk about that later, but the mini courses, like part of how I came up with this is going through it with this person where it’s like, all right, let’s look at what jealousy really is.

Cause we talk about jealousy. Like it’s just a [00:31:00] feeling, but really jealousy has like three layers to it. And only one of those layers is the feelings. The other layers are the the thoughts and interpretations that come with jealousy. And then the other one is like the body nervous system response to jealousy.

so when working with this person, we really broke down those three layers of jealousy and how you deal with each one. And by the time we were done working together, this person was like living their best life. Like had a really robust community of friends had, I think that time, two different people that they had like an intimate connection with that they saw a couple of times a week, they had their job that was like thriving.

And they were, you know, they were working through and managing the, how to come out to people, how to deal with some of the stigma, how to, you know, continue to live in a way that felt like it was in line with their values, how to make sure that they were [00:32:00] consenting the pieces they, they wanted to within all their relationships.

De’Vannon: Come out. You mean like coming out polyamorous as it sounds to me about that. So, so, so people have to go through a, or some people feel like they need to go through a process of coming out to what friends, families like, Hey, I’m not monogamous. I’m actually polyamorous. How big of a deal is this?

Heidi: I mean, depending on how you live your life, it’s a huge deal. Because like, if you don’t come out, let’s say, you know, you’re coming to the family, barbecue and you bring one of your partners and everyone’s like, who the fuck is this? And where’s Bob, you know, like what, what happened? Like this? Isn’t your partner?

Are you cheating? What’s happening here? Like does, does your other partner know what’s happening right now? And so if you don’t come out, you look like a cheater. 

De’Vannon: Bo you just going to bring you home to the family? Barbecue bitch wide.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. And, and because of the [00:33:00] assumptions people make, or let’s say, you know, they see you out in the community, they, they come up to you and they’re like, who are you making out with over here at the bar? Who is this person? And like, you know, does, does your wife know you’re here? Does your husband know you’re here?

Like what the heck? And so coming out becomes really important because you know, a lot of polyamorous people like don’t want to be seen as cheaters. And they want to, with their friends and with their family, be able to just like monogamous. People are like, Hey, my partner is part of my life. I want them to be part of my friend group.

I want them to be part of my family. Polyamorous. People might feel that way about all their partners and you know, if they don’t come out, then it’s like, what is this? You know, everyone’s going to be like, what’s the story here? 

Yeah. 

De’Vannon: Well shit. Well say

I would treat it the same damn way. Like I personally. Never came out because I just, by the [00:34:00]time I was an adult and I don’t know, and you know, and everything, I just was like, you know what, fuck all of y’all, you know, everyone in my family and everything, if you don’t my lifestyle, you can like eat shit for all.

I give a shit, but I know that everybody’s going to be like that. But I have successfully detached myself from the opinions of others. And so we do the very liberating thing. I highly recommend it to every fucking body on the globe, because once we get over giving a damn about what people think about us, oh my God, like, you’re, you’re you like 10 years, like in a good way, you, you like become 10 years younger, everything like that.

So sucks though, that people feel like they need to explain who they are you know, straight people in like regular one-on-one relationships or just straight people don’t have to come out straight. know, they don’t have to go around saying, you know what, I’m going to be. 

Heidi: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: I hope you still love me and accept me and everything.

Heidi: Yeah. [00:35:00]

De’Vannon: And I’m all like, well, those bitches don’t have to come out straight, then I’m not going to come out polyamorous. I’m just going to show up with my kin bugging lovers. I wish a bitch would say something

Heidi: Yeah. That’s like, that’s another way of coming out, right. 

Is like, just like coming out is really. I mean, coming out is in some ways it’s just showing up as you are unabashedly. And like, that can be a form of coming out, you know? And so, and some people do come out that way and it’s like, yep, this is my relationship.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. This is just me. But the thing about the thing about coming out as polyamorous too, that it feels like worth mentioning is that it takes a lot of privilege to be able to come out because you know, some people you know, based on a lot of reasons, rely on their community a lot more [00:36:00] may, and if they don’t have a lot of societal privileges, they can’t risk being.

You know, ex-communicated from their community because they may rely on them for things like work or finances or housing or things like that. And other piece that I think is really important to note is that relationship structure is not a protected class. So like being queer as a protected class, right?

Like you can’t be fired for being queer. You can’t be discriminated against you absolutely can be fired for being polyamorous. You can be discriminated against for being polyamorous. There’s no legal protection around that. And in fact, a lot of places have morality clauses, where one of the things in included in their morality clause is something around infidelity and they’ll view it as infidelity and be like, oh, you violated the morality clause, sorry, by and fire folks.

So, you [00:37:00] know, there’s, there’s a lot of baggage around coming. 

De’Vannon: That’s a goddamn shame because then that puts people in a position where they’re not going to truly be happy, because if you ever in a position in your life you can’t live out loud and you’re stifling, you know, a part of yourself, then you risk becoming, you know, very unhappy. So you’re going to this job that you may love and you’re making the money that you want to make.

But heaven forbid if word gets around town, you know, you know, you go to a bowling alley and be seen by a coworker, and now you may lose your job. You know, you live in, you’re living constantly under a certain amount of fear. 

Heidi: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: And you know, none of the massage therapists did me and I am a licensed massage therapy.

 Uh, Hypnotherapists, you know, you know, the, the therapist in me is going, okay, what are going to be the longterm health implications of this? Even if it’s not seemingly a lot of fear, that shit pools on your [00:38:00] anatomy over time, and then it can appear as different elements. It can appear as cancers, as tumors.

It assists as different shit going on in your body. And the doctors are trying to trace it and they can’t find the root of it. The root cause of it is the stress that you’re under because you’re living at least some portion of a lie, even if the whole thing is, and you know, you know, you know that it’s not the whole truth.

And I know it was not easy to just pack all your shit up and like leave, you know, but maybe we could start an exit strategy. Like, that’s my message to the people in Florida right now. So like y’all’s government is gone to hit. It’s just, it’s just, it’s just all fucked. So all the gay people, all the two S LGBTQ all the gamblers, people just leave Florida.

We’ll all meet up in California and fucking Canada somewhere where shit’s like, cool. Like we can’t fix that shit.

Heidi: Yeah. And I think you’re right. [00:39:00] As you were talking about like the whole, like going to a bowling alley And being seen, like I was thinking like, gosh, so much of it depends on where you live because I live in Portland, Oregon, and you know, it’s, it’s a pretty liberal place and there are tons of polyamory folks here, like lots of us and, and you know, not like you don’t face stigma and pop in Portland because you surely still do.

But you know, it’s, it’s not a place where you’re probably gonna get fired from your job. If you’re seeing it, you’re at the bowling alley with your three-part.

De’Vannon: And for those of you may not know what I’m talking about right now in Florida, they have like this whole bills that you can’t say anything gay and stuff like that. I think in like in schools, they’re just trying to snub and spiteful, all things that are not straight 

Heidi: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: et cetera, et cetera.

And then if that happens, then, you know, that leads to, I don’t know, and witch hunts next, know, they just really want us all dead anyway. You know, so to my whole thing is it’s just like, just like going to a [00:40:00] church that has an anti LGBTQ plus policy. stay there and fight with them when you just fucking go somewhere else where you’re going to 

Heidi: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: Now it’s easier to switch churches than it is to switch states, but see the warning signs, you see the shit coming, start getting people in Florida, start making your flight, get out. Now, if especially if this fucking bill passes you, we don’t, we don’t need this, you know, Florida. That damn great. The best thing you have with Miami key west Lando in Pensacola, your, all your gay spots anyway, all the bullshit in between.

Okay. Fuck them.

Heidi: Yup. Yeah, I mean, that’s like, that’s so real though, you know, and I think there’s so many, it’s not just Florida where those kinds of bills are passing either. Like there’s a lot of states that are going through that right now and it isn’t show. 

De’Vannon: Bucky, Texas, then all of that, it, you know, [00:41:00] it it’s a goddamn shame. So you mentioned some of the emotions that come along with polyamory. find that they present themselves in monogamy too. We talked about jealousy a lot in adequacy, fear of a loss to let go of the expectations of compulsory monogamy, which we’ve kind of been touching on here, there.

Speak to me about the inadequacy issue because I found in my relationships with men, a lot of them come to me with these preconceived notions of inadequacy surrounding Dick size, 

Heidi: Hmm. 

De’Vannon: I didn’t say anything. I was just trying to bounce on the motherfucker, but you know, he has all of these things in his head about what size it’s supposed to be, should be what it should look like.

And I don’t, like a male thing. I kind of identify more with female on most days. So I don’t, I’m not trying to take this struggle from them. I don’t get it. It works. I’m gonna do something with it, period done, you know, [00:42:00] but they’re not like that. They it’s a whole big deal to them. So I can imagine.

And I know to the guys when they have orgies and shit like that, they tend to measure their dicks against the other guys in the room, rather than just focusing on having fun. this is ingrained into them. And so I just want you to talk about inadequacies. It didn’t have to be Dick inadequacies.

That’s just, that’s just been my struggle, what I’ve 

Heidi: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: I thought I’d throw it out there. So what are you, what are you seeing?

Heidi: Yeah. I mean, I think that you touched on this a little, that it’s so easy to get into the comparison game, you know, and especially when you’re talking about non-monogamy, so if you’re dating someone, who’s also dating other people, it’s so easy to go into like comparing, well, what does that person have that I don’t, are they better at this?

Or are they better at that? Or they, you know, how do they look compared to me? And that that’s such an easy trap to fall into and it’s, you know, it doesn’t lead [00:43:00] to anything good. I mean, like you said, you know, it leads to like taking yourself out of the experience, comparing to other people in some ways, like, especially when it comes to things like appearance or size, it, it leads us to objectify ourselves and objectify other people.

When we are narrowing down our focus to just someone’s appearance or just their size or things like that. And that takes the humanity out of it. So as much as possible, I like to acknowledge that it is very human to do the comparison thing. And when you notice you’re doing it, the best thing to do is start to like gently pull back from it to step away, to bring the focus back to you.

And, and part of that especially this is so true in polyamory. It’s like the idea of like, well, am I really good enough? Am I special? What if I was good enough? Would you really need these other people? Those are like old monogamy mindset, things that can creep in and people can say. what [00:44:00] I encourage people to do is focus on.

What is unique about you? What is it about you that you offer and you Brin that is just yours like that your partner sees in you and loves in you that has nothing to do with, you know, these objective things about like, oh, well, is my Dick as big as your other nurse deck or, you know is my waist is smaller, whatever, whatever the things are, or even like, are they funnier than I am?

You know, even getting into those kinds of comparisons, like pulling back and really staying present in like, what do I have to offer? What, what are the unique things that make me, you know, me and the way I am. And, and I find that when I do that personally, I get so much more grounded in myself and my own like value and worth as, as a partner and as a friend.

And like, even the things about me that are like, kind of like quirky and [00:45:00] weird, like I can embrace even those things. When I step out of comparison. Like, I mean, there are things about me that like, my partners ended up loving about me, but like, they wouldn’t have to, like, I have no sense of direction at all.

I couldn’t get, I couldn’t find my way out of a paper bag. I snort when I laugh, I like, you know, I get words wrong all the time. I make up words in place of real words. And like, these are things that I could be like, oh, well these are my inadequacies. These are things that make, you know, like maybe other partners have these things going on.

That I don’t really, instead I can be like, yeah, these are the things that make me Heidi. All of the unique features that make me my own hygienists goodness, and people can like it or not. And, and when I can like really ground and like my own uniqueness and my own values and what I have to offer and take my focus off of what other people have to offer.

I find that I can move out of [00:46:00] that, that inadequacy place, if that makes sense. 

De’Vannon: It does it all makes perfect sense. You smart ass bitch share. I love it. So, as you’re saying that though, I’m reminded of my own inadequacy struggles. So like, say like with my current partner, much better relationship than I’ve had with the previous ones. I’m thinking that. A lot of the inadequacies that we suffer through, Heidi have to do with like previous hurt and stuff like that.

So I think like if somebody is really struggling with this, it may take a good LCSW, perhaps some of your coaching sessions or something like that. I know I needed a lot of help and, you know, professional help or did to get over it. So like, my dad had said like two affairs, I’ve had guys do like, you know, dishonest, you know, shit with me and stuff like that.

You know, th the negative things, as well as the positive things that we experienced imprint upon us, especially upon our subconscious. And then they tend to pull at us when we think we’ve gotten over it. And maybe we [00:47:00] haven’t because if you have gone through a negative experience and you have not intentionally tackled it and processed it, then chances are, it’s still there.

Like those things don’t tend to sprout wings and fly away on their own. So. 

Heidi: Yup. 

De’Vannon: So because I was with him, you know, I would get bothered if he would look at somebody else, you know, in an attractive, you know, and I thought that maybe he was attracted to them and I would do those comparison thing. You know, maybe his cousin, you know, I weigh more than them or, you know, what is it that they have that I don’t, you know, all of that, all of this, you know?

And then I started working on it in you know, aggressively through a lot of prayer meditation. You know, you know, and, and I keep, I keep me some sort of psychotherapist at all times my hypnotherapy training helped me a lot to you know, to really get into the subconscious. And now, you know, I went from arguing with him if I felt like he was disrespecting me by looking at somebody else, you know, when we were out and about to have [00:48:00] in three ways and being totally cool with it.

And, you know, I just kind of stepped back and I looked at it, you know, like I w why was I making such a big deal out of this? You know, I can just easily watch him have sex with somebody and just not really have an opinion about it one way or the other, because I finally come to a point where I’m like, you know, it’s not me, you know, he can have sex with someone or look at someone else, and it doesn’t have to be meant against me.

You know, I stopped taking personally.

Heidi: totally, totally. And I think that what you’re getting at is like something that I think is so important for monogamous people or polyamorous people, like whether or not you ended up wanting to have three ways with your partner or not like the idea that. know, we are not, we are not made to only find one person attractive.

There’s not like we are attracted to what we’re attracted to. And the idea that once we fall in love that like, that, that part of us would just die or turn off. It’s ridiculous. Like, of course we’re going to still [00:49:00] find people attractive, even if we’re in a monogamous relationship, right? Like, of course, we’re going to check people out and be like, damn, I can appreciate that.

A static. That is someone I find attractive and like that, how do we move past the idea that that is a betrayal? How do we move into, like, we are each our own full humans who get to have these experiences. And the thing I like about polyamory is it focuses on like, what are the relationship agreements?

And I think that could be true in monogamy too. Like we have a relationship agreement, let’s say a monogamy that we only have sex with each other. That being said like part of like honoring and acknowledging our field full humanity is recognizing that. We can both be attracted to lots of different folks and maybe, you know, it’s part of our agreements that we like to flirt with people.

And that’s like part of how we relate and that, that doesn’t need to have anything to do with me. That doesn’t have to be that, that doesn’t mean that I am inadequate in any way, just because my partner finds other [00:50:00] people attractive. Like, you know, I, I think I’m attractive, but I have a specific kind of attractive and there there’s a whole universe of different kinds of attractiveness out there.

And if I have a partner who appreciates those other kinds, then that’s great. And that that’s not indicative of a failure on my part. And again, like I think monogamous people could learn this just as much as polyamorous people could. 

De’Vannon: No fuck. Yeah. I just remember it. That’s where I had learned. That everything’s about me thing is a little one. I was in my working with my sponsor, working through like the 12 steps crystal meth, anonymous, alcoholics anonymous and stuff like that. And which is it’s it’s a lot of psychotherapy mixed into it, a drug rehab any way.

And so, but you don’t have to be a drug addict to, I think, benefit from some of the lessons. I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of the anonymous movement. That’s why I’m not a part of it anymore, but there was some good shit that I took out of it. And the [00:51:00] best thing that I did was that not every fucking thing has to be about me.

And once I internalized that I was able to let so much shit go because I have never paid attention to the fact that I wasn’t making everything about me. So then once I got over myself, then I stopped being heard about everything. You know, my partner was doing and I have a much happier life now.

Heidi: totally. Yeah. Yeah. And like not, you know, I think that’s part of the unlearning. I think we learn that like, love is scarce and love is something that. We have to protect, and there’s only so much love. And if, you know, if our partners love someone else, that means they love us less. And like, when we can let go of that idea of scarcity, then it’s not like, It doesn’t have to have anything to do with me.

If my partner finds someone else attractive or wants to date someone else or whatever, because there’s, you know, that love or [00:52:00] attraction that they feel for someone else doesn’t mean that there’s less for me. And it also, it’s getting away from this idea that I think comes from religion comes from like capitalism’s invention of the nuclear family, this idea that one person has to be everything.

your partner has to be everything. They have to be your emotional sounding board. They have to fill, fulfill all your sexual fantasies. They should stimulate you intellectually at all times. if you have kids, they should be a co-parent. own property together, you’re basically business partners together.

And one person has to do all of that. And if they don’t, then there’s something wrong with them or there’s something wrong with the relationship. That’s a lot of fucking pressure on one person. And it’s so unfair. It’s unfair to the individuals and it’s unfair to the relationship to have to that much weight. 

De’Vannon: I’ve never heard of it state it like that before, but I would agree. [00:53:00] And I suppose that’s one of the constructs fail often while divorce rates is so high, as it goes, people are really trying to build a lie that they’ve been taught and it’s not, it’s not their truth.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. I think I think you’re right.

De’Vannon: Yeah. I think that I was going about doing that with my boyfriend because of. You know, religious teachings, it came to a point girl. I told God, this, I was like, you know what? There’s so much noise and static in my head from what preachers have told me from what this voice has said. And that voice has said the military, my abuse of dad’s household and everything.

I said, I want you to remove all of those voices I’m going to reapproach a life. I’ve told him, it’s like last year, to like, I’m about to be 40 years old this year. Can’t wait. So I could be an official fucking Cougar because my boyfriend is twenty-five and I to tell him, yeah, I’m just going to like start life over brand new as if I’m just learning everything afresh without the, the [00:54:00] preemptive right or wrong in all of this was going to approach everything new.

I’m just going to sit them. I can do anything. And then I will just learn what’s right or wrong from you from you God, directly. And then we will go from there. I just have to just throw it all the way 

Heidi: Hm. 

De’Vannon: it was too confusing. It was too. It was too, it was too tankless. I got a whole new mind,

Heidi: But that takes so much courage because, you know, I think many people lean on what we’ve been handling. The default forums of what we’ve been handed about sexuality, about relationships, about, you know, morality. just get handed this default and, and we just go with it. But the scary thing about doing what you’ve done the reason I think it takes so much courage is because you’re invent, you’re building your own path.

You’re not relying on a blue pit print anymore. And that can be really scary. I mean, it’s liberating and it can be really scary. 

De’Vannon: helped me to understand [00:55:00] how it can be scary because this is something that I’m okay. I feel like we’re about to enter into like a counseling session for me right now. This was not how I thought this conversation was going to go. But I, what, what you just mentioned is completely lost on me. ’cause maybe, you know, I do have a third eye and I’m very naturally spiritually inclined.

And so I, I tend to like, to, to tell back and forth in between this realm and the next, because this is how I am. I’m super like Sagittarius, spiritual, you know, Jesus, all that. So for me, evolution, and it’s natural and I love to burn some shit down and start it over. And that’s my, one of my greatest joys in life is newness.

But what I’m hearing you thing is this is some people are not necessarily inclined this way and that you say they have a, so there’s fear, there’s bravery. And this is not even something that say like I did in front of a lot of people. This is like a personal choice. So you’re saying even in private to make this sort [00:56:00] of decision, this can take a lot of bravery for somebody.

I mean, help me to help me to get this.

Heidi: Yeah. So like you know, it’s like, eh, this.

is a silly metaphor, but like, let’s say like, you want to build a house and you like have your blueprint. Right. And it’s like, here’s where the boards go. Here’s where the nails for here’s where the door goes. like that blueprint may not be what you want, but at least there’s instruction.

You know, there’s a way to do it. And you know, that this way has worked for people. so you can like do it and you might not end up with the house you want, but you know, it’s going to be like livable. Whereas if you have no blueprint, it’s scary because it’s like, if, is the thing that I do doesn’t work?

Or what if I have to change it halfway through? Or what if this thing I build, like, it doesn’t look like what anyone else built and how will that be? You know? So even if the instructions are faulty, even if [00:57:00] we know that, like they don’t work for a lot of people, or even if they know we don’t, we know they don’t work for us, is something I think is, is safe about doing the thing that like comes with a default set of instructions.

when we shut all that and we have to start from the ground up, I think for a lot of people that can be really disorienting, can be scary. Sometimes it’s hard to find mentors when you’re, you know, creating your own. 

De’Vannon: Huh. I’m going to be thinking about this for a while, because this is going to give me a better understanding of like my own relationships and stuff like that. That’s the, that’s the motion that I am channeling, as you are describing this as if kind of like how a freshmen might feel on the first day of high school or how somebody might feel when they’re about to get on a roller coaster that loss of control, complete unknowing, this butterflies just vomiting up out of your stomach and everything like that.

And you don’t know how to [00:58:00] move forward until the dependencies to revert back.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s it. 

De’Vannon: Mm Hmm. didn’t learn me something big girl. I’m about to think about that one for a minute. 

Heidi: I love it. 

De’Vannon: okay. So let me, let me get back on, on track here and get. You mentioned that you’ve mentioned living apart together movement a little bit earlier. How big of a deal is this? hi. How are you? You mentioned earlier was about a situation where maybe two people really are into each other where they’re never going to live together.

When I was researching you, you called it the, the Latin movement, the lat living apart together movement. Is this a super big deal right now?

Heidi: I think it’s becoming a bigger and bigger deal for sure. So, and I think some of that is the pandemic. You know, folks being [00:59:00] like, wow, when we’re stuck at home together, it’s like, I love you. But like, I don’t want to be with you 24 7 or, you know, folks who decide not to have. You know, sometimes there’s like less of that reason to live together.

 Yeah. And I think a lot of people value their, their independence and their autonomy. And so they don’t necessarily want to live with an intimate partner. And again, this takes courage because it’s shedding the blueprint I’ve been, I have a partner who I’ve been with for seven years. We’ve never lived together.

You have no plans of living together. We love each other very much deeply committed, but don’t plan to live together. And it’s so interesting. Like how the assumptions people throw at us around like, oh, I guess I thought you two were more serious or I thought you were more committed or, oh, but like, if you get married, then you’ll move in together. Right. And yeah. And it’s [01:00:00] like, it’s so interesting that, that, that is even in the polyamorous community. I feel like there’s this like baked in assumption that like serious equals cohabitating. And if you’re not doing that, then something must be wrong.

De’Vannon: Right. And then there’s also the assumption that closeness equals go habitating. You know, most people get divorced the same fucking roof. And so just because you’re living together, doesn’t mean you’re close. That’s a, that’s an aesthetic prosthetic, superficial, whatever the fuck the right word is, you know, those are optics.

Heidi: Yup. 

De’Vannon: to fit you into what they believe a normal supposed to look like. So you’re making other people uncomfortable due to your unconventional approach and they can’t deal with that. So they’re trying to shimmy you on down and force you into their box so that they can feel better about themselves, you know,

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that, like, it’s also like this idea, you know,

same with polyamory. It’s like a lot of people, their only experience of [01:01:00] non-monogamy is cheating. And so they look at polyamory through a cheating lens because that’s all they know. And so I think it’s the same with the living apart together whose met where it’s like their only experience of people living apart is if they’re separated and they’re doing a trial separation and deciding if they want to get back together or not.

So, because that’s all they know, that’s the lens they look through when they see two people who are in a long-term relationship and not living together. And, you know, and that’s also like it’s living without a blueprint because there’s not a lot of models out there for how to, you know, maintain a, a loving long-term relationship, not living in. 

De’Vannon: Okay. So you mentioned so some people might have fear about stepping out. Trying this new shit and becoming their true self cause they might not be able to find a mentor to speak to me about the polyamory community. So are people able to find this through the internet, through books, if somebody is in that fearful space, how might they reach further and find.

Heidi: [01:02:00] Yeah, so good. I love that. So I actually just wrote a blog post about this. Well, it’s not a blog post, it’s a newsletter, but I might someday have turned it into a blog post. But so I think building community is huge. I think that piece is really important in, because of the reasons we just mentioned, you know, because there’s no blueprint because it can feel really isolating because there’s the stigma.

So there’s a lot of ways I recommend people start to build community. The first and easiest is look in your community. You know, a lot of times there’ll be Facebook groups, local Facebook groups, or meet up groups, or sometimes FetLife has some groups that are available. So looking in your, like for your local resources, are there groups of polyamorous, people who are getting together for social reasons, like at a bar or, you know, they go bowling or they do karaoke or they have a game night or, you know, something, they have a happy hour once a month or something like that.

So finding those places, if they exist in your [01:03:00] area depending where you live this may or may not exist, then there’s online communities that just exist online. I think another place you can find community though. It can be a little more limited if it just exists online and it’s not something you can have in person, but also be really rich and those can exist on like Facebook and discord.

 I think also reading books, there are some good books out there to get you started with non-monogamy and then polyamory And then like, if, for folks who have like the local sex shop, not, not every town has these, but for towns that have independently run little sex shops, do educational pieces.

They do classes and things, and some of their classes, at least where I live R and D spec shop those classes on relationship stuff too, not just sex. And so sometimes they’ll do classes on things like polyamory. the thing that I love most about my study or poly wobbles [01:04:00] course is it’s thing that involves coaching, individual coaching and community.

So even if you don’t have anyone where you live as part of this group, you’re in a tight knit group that meets together for eight weeks. And so you’re really building community with these people over the course of eight weeks. you might build lifelong friendships with folks who you can have alongside you.

I always tell people is like that Community piece is more important than finding partners. I say, prioritize, finding community over finding partners because that’s what you can lean on when, when things get tough, that’s where you can go to for relationship advice. And then in terms of mentoring, you know, I think finding a good therapist, finding a coach, someone in your local community, who’s been doing this for a long time.

Who’s willing to like share some emotional labor around it are places to start. 

De’Vannon: Amen to all of [01:05:00] that honey, on a Tuesday afternoon, I’m going to ask you this, the last question, and then I’ll let you have sound the last word I’d like to know. What can polyamory teach, monogamous people about healthy relationships.

Heidi: Oh, that’s such a big one. So I think. One thing, which we touched on is the jealousy piece. think that in monogamy, a lot of times jealousy is treated as somebody doing something wrong. you know, if I’m with the partner and you know, she’s talking, she goes up to get a drink and tux strikes up conversation with someone else at the bar and then comes back and I’m like, you talk to someone else.

And that made me really jealous. Like, can you not do that anymore? Right. Like, You did something wrong and I didn’t like it or it’s oh, you’re jealous. Well, you’re so possessive and clingy. Why don’t you get over [01:06:00] yourself? either way, it’s like, someone’s done something wrong. And I think in polyamory, we reframed jealousy as like, no, one’s done anything wrong.

This is just an experience. I’m happy. I want to get curious about this. Why am I having this experience? What’s coming up for me? And maybe there’s a request I want to make of my partner to do something differently, but maybe not. Maybe it’s just, oh, I learned something about myself and my triggers and there’s something I can do to like attend to my own feelings in this moment.

So I think that’s, that’s a really big one that I think everyone could, could benefit from just like approaching jealousy differently. Yeah. And I think another one is we already touched on this, but just to highlight it like that relationship escalator that we talked about, I think monogamous people can benefit from examining that too, because, you know, just because you’re monogamous doesn’t mean you have to follow that escalator.

You may decide that you want to have a baby with someone before you get married, or you may decide that you never want to move in with someone, but you want to be close to them. [01:07:00] Or, you know, maybe you want to have a long-term relationship and not get married. And so being able to liberate yourself from that escalator and being like, I have to do all these things in order for this to be real.

And if I don’t, then it’s not a legitimate relationship. I think it was another really helpful piece. But monogamous people can learn. Also one last thing is like that polyamory can teach us, like we don’t own our cars. We don’t own them. They are not our property. They’re fully autonomous humans. We may have relationship agreements that we both agree to, but there’s no ownership, right?

We’re all people who get to consent to being in relationships.

with each other. And I think sometimes in when monogamy is not critically examined And just done a default, there are some like possessive traits that come with it. And I’m not saying that monogamy is like [01:08:00] possessive inherently. I’m saying that there are ways that people can practice monogamy that can be very possessive and that, you know, when you examine them and step back from them, you can engage in healthy monogamy without that possession.

De’Vannon: And baby who the son is. Jesus said it whom the son sets free is free. Indeed. And with the knowledge you can be made free do you have any, and any other advice closing words you’d like to give to the people of the world?

Heidi: I think that, yeah, the advice I would give is come back to intention, regardless of the relationship style you choose, whether it’s swinger, monogamous, polyamorous, make sure that you are living from a place of intention. Are you doing this because you choose it are you doing this because it was chosen for you.

And as long as you’re doing what you choose for yourself, then I think that that is healthy and authentic and wonderful, but make [01:09:00] sure that it is what you choose and that the other people are consenting to it. And you are, you are good to go. 

De’Vannon: Fuck. Yeah. All right. Her name is Heidi. Savelle. Her website is she loves erotically.com. You can also find her on Instagram and I’m going to put, of course, all of this in the show we notes, like I always do. Thank you so much, Heidi, for coming on the sex drugs and Jesus Talia podcast. Emphasis. The T with me today, this was some really useful topping information and I just pray and speak and believe that millions will be set free because of this discussion we can today.

Heidi: I love it. And thanks for all the Jesus quotes. You taught this Jewish girl, a few things today. I appreciate those, quotes. 

De’Vannon: Halleloo!.

Heidi: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more [01:10:00] information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right.

 

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