Barry Bowen is the Staff Investigator at Trinity Foundation, a nonprofit organization that investigates religious fraud, theft and excess. From 2005 to 2010 Bowen served as one of the third-party whistleblowers assisting the U.S. Senate in its investigation of six TV ministries.
INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):
· Explanation Of IRS Forms 990 & 990T
· The Cora Jakes-Coleman Potter’s House Sex Scandal
· Bisexual Televangelists
· Do You REALLY Know Your Pastor?
· Insight Into The Bible Translations Industry
· Pastors Paying Pastors aka “Honorariums”
· Church Music As A Business
· Church Of God In Christ (C.O.G.I.C.) Tom Foolery
· How The Church Is Like The ‘World’
· Revelation Chapter 18
CONNECT WITH BARRY:
CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON:
· Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)
o TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs
· OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)
· Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)
· Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin
· Upwork: https://www.upwork.com
· FreeUp: https://freeup.net
VETERAN’S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS
· Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org
· American Legion: https://www.legion.org
· What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg
INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:
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Barry Bowen Part 3
You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.
There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.
De’Vannon: Barry Bowen, staff investigator at the Trinity Foundation is back with me for the third time. Y’all. Trinity Foundation investigates churches and televangelists and stuff like that, and so Barry Bowen. The perfect fit for my show. Now, in this episode, we discussed the financial trail found within the Bible translation industry, and we’re talking about millions of dollars people, millions, we’re gonna talk about child molesting, [00:01:00] televangelist, atheist preachers who don’t even believe a word they fucking preach. And so much more. Y’all, when I say I can’t even, I mean I can not even. Please listen to this episode and share it with someone you love. And feel free to reach out to me with any comments that you might have.
I’m curious to hear what you have to say.
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. My name is Devana and I am so glad that you decided to join me again on the day. I’ve got my homeboy, Barry Bowen back with me again, and we are here to break all the religious teeth down for you.
And so the last time I had you on the show, We were talking about all these different churches and everything, and when we left we were gonna do like a Lakewood follow up. And so we, we, I know you’ve requested some information from the irs, they refused to [00:02:00] give it to you, so we’re still waiting to get a lot of that.
We did find out that they just started following their nine 90 tees back in like 2018. So basically we are still waiting for information on them, but can you explain everyone what a nine 90 T is?
Barry: The irs requires non-profit organizations that have $1,000 or more an unrelated business income to file this Form nine 90 T.
The income can be taxed and there are certain loopholes to the tax. The weirdest loophole in my opinion is rental income. So if a church is renting a facility and then they use that. Property for an outside event and they get money for, for it. It’s taxable income if they own the building outright and do outside events [00:03:00] there and are paid for it.
It’s not taxable. It, it’s really weird how the system works. But regular non-profits have to file a form called a nine 90, which is separate from the nine 90 T. There are different versions of it. One’s called a postcard nine 90. That’s for organizations with, I believe, $50,000 or less than revenue.
Then there is a nine 90 easy form, which is for organizations with 50, more than $50,000 to under, I think $200,000. And anything more than that was the regular nine 90. And so a regular nine 90. They will disclose this kind of information in it.
De’Vannon: And so we shall see in the future, you know, how transparently liquid gets so far we’ve been unable to attain, obtain their, their true income.
[00:04:00] Though there has been some articles published, unlike their spending, but not so much on the income breakdown. So we shall see as time goes on. Did you hear about over at the, over at the Potter’s house, the the the sex ring scandal with Jake’s daughter, Cora?
Barry: Yes. .
De’Vannon: What are your thoughts?
Because years ago, his son was caught up in some kind of sex shit too. And so now, We’re talking about T Jake’s son was caught up in some kind of sex bullshit too. And now his, as I understand it, the, the daughter core Jake’s Coleman and the her husband was apparently running them holes. , what do you
Barry: I have a friend who’s following it very closely behind the scenes and she is like, and not in [00:05:00] shock because she knows how corrupt some of these people can be.
And there have been a number of sex predators in the church. It’s a tragic thing. It really does happen. What happens is churches try to be a place where people are trusted and where you can parents can trust their children to be Watched and not harmed. We know that in some cases that’s not what happens.
They do get harmed. Cora has, I believe, filed for divorce. I think she has, I haven’t followed this it that closely. I don’t know what she knew and when she started knowing it, but [00:06:00] often in the case of when these type of sex scandals happen in a church, they try to get the parents of victims to sign out of court agreements with confidentiality clauses.
They try to buy their silence. So, and that’s the one of the main ways of churches tried to handle these scandals. Now, that’s not legal by the. What you’re supposed to do is, it’s supposed to be reported to law enforcement. Pastors are considered mandatory reporters. So when you have a sex scandal in a church and you report it to church staff, by law, they’re supposed to contact law enforcement.
De’Vannon: Well, the divorce is not going to absolve her of any guilt or clear her name or un muddy her name or anything. It’s too late for that . [00:07:00]
Barry: So, yeah. I attended a church years ago. There was a, where there was a sex scandal and it was tragic. I mean, I did not expect this person to do those kind of things. And he abused a young boy and that was, there were people that stopped attending church because of it.
The police. So what happened is, in this case, the church cooperated with authorities and they did not try to rehabilitate him as in trying to provide a new church job for him or anything like that. I mean, in my opinion, a a sexual predator should never be hired by a church.
De’Vannon: Well, the Catholic church didn’t get that [00:08:00] memo.
At least this church seemed like maybe they have some type of a soul. But I’d like to point out is that. , you know, these people who are doing this are not members of the BT Q I A plus community. You know, cuz these churches always trying to act like we’re working around, they’re trying to rape and molest their boys and everything like that, you know.
But when it actually comes out, it’s men who are married to women, men who identify as straight, or in case of mis cho, she’s female herself. And you know, if fatt is true, then honey, then she was in there doing the dip too and fucking with these children. So we’ll see what comes out in court
Barry: when, and as an investigator of televangelist and other religious organizations, we get all kinds of tips and one of the things that I have learned is when a person has zero self-control in the area of [00:09:00] money, they usually have no self-control in other areas of their lives, including their sexuality.
We have seen a large number of televangelists that are bisexual. I’m not about to out a bunch of people, but there are tons of rumors. Lots of them and almost all of ’em are credible. There is one that I wanna talk about though. There is a televangelist now deceased who in the 1990s, a TV network decided to do a TV expose on him.
And I’ll tell you who it is, after I finished telling you this story the a TV network decided they wanted to launch a new investigative one hour TV show a competitor to 60 Minutes. And this would’ve been one of their first TV shows. And so they started investigating a [00:10:00] televangelist and he was involved sexually with a male judge.
Yes, you heard that, correct? Mm-hmm. this TV expose would’ve been a blockbuster. They had cameramen going into gay bars. There was employees of the organization going to gay bars. It was a wild story. But it was, or Roberts founder of, or Roberts University, the famous healing evangelist of the 1950s and later he was involved with a male judge.
De’Vannon: None of this surprises.
Barry: The, the, what happened was he had a health problem. I can’t remember if it was a stroke. [00:11:00] Some type of a me medical emergency almost died, and this was right before the TV expose was scheduled to air. And what I think is happened is they canceled the program and I think it may have been induced by stress.
He knew this expose was gonna come out. But yeah, there’s, that’s one of the wildest stories. But I mean, there are others that we’ve heard of. I mean, there’s there are rumors about different televangelist committing rape. There’s one case I know about that the records got sealed. I think it’s a protective order or something that, so they, the results can’t be disclosed.
I can’t drop a name or anything. But the allegations were. Absolutely horrendous.
De’Vannon: Well, everyone just remember, you don’t really [00:12:00] know your preachers. And for all the photo ops and all the social media visits, I remember, I think when Joel and Victoria Oing would go visit Earl Roberts and it was this whole media production thing.
What I always wonder is what do these televangelist talk about when they were around each other? When the cameras turn off? Because whenever they’re in front of a camera, they’re at work. That is a version of them. They’re selling no matter who they are. In all of television, it’s the same thing. So I try to encourage people to remember that you don’t know you’re a preacher.
You’re not sitting down having dinner and you doing cocaine or whatever the fuck it is you like to do with him. Like you don’t really know what the fuck he does when he is not around you or who he really is. So oral robber’s, fucking the shit out of this judge. At least he had enough sense to go for power , you know?
You know, and so, so this, none of this surprises me. And so, okay. I wanted to talk a lot today about the [00:13:00] Bible translations industry. This is super duper important because so many people read the Bible and then they tell their life off of what they perceive it to mean. Preachers try to control their congregations through the Bible and so much, you know, politicians, especially Republicans, try to make policy in everything based off of what they believe the Bible mean.
So much stuff revolves around the Bible. And so I wanted to get into the finances behind the Bible. It’s a very interesting thing to me because the Bible is, we know, came from the Middle East at some point. Oh, king James decided he wanted to make an interpretation of. There’s a documentary on the Discovery Plus channel right now called The Book of Queer, where they go over queer people from history who we didn’t know were queer.
Abraham Lincoln, this certain Pharaoh, [00:14:00] and King James himself of the King James version. According to this documentary, he was a big old queer girl and it didn’t matter, you know, what he put in there, but he was fucking around with boys too. So of course, in, you know, people from Europe come over here, start fucking with the indigenous people and whatever, and they bring their religion, their Catholicism, or whatever the hell you know, they had.
So now we’re here in present day in the, in. This Bible is just everywhere, all over the world, and people don’t really, in my opinion, treated with respect. Like it actually came from the Middle East and that we’re actually worshiping a God that was originally not our own. So this, this ownership of it. It seems like a bastard bastardization of its value to me.
Now, in a blog you wrote or something I found on your website, which will go in the show notes, I believe you said that there’s an estimated [00:15:00] 500 million per year in the Bible translation industry.
Barry: We reprinted an article from Ministry Watch. The author of the story is Warren Cole Smith. Warren Cole.
Smith has written for World Magazine. He’s worked for the Colson Center. He’s a very credible investigative reporter. He’s written a book, faith-Based Fraud. And so we’ve looked into religious organizations involved in publication of Bibles. He’s done a very thorough dive into them and. So he wrote that a half a billion dollars annually is spent on a revenue, goes to these organizations involved in translating the Bible.
But I wanna go back a few centuries before the printing press. Bibles were handwritten. It would take a [00:16:00] scribe a long time to hand write the Bible. And when Gutenberg invented his printing press, he was able to speed up the process big time. A lot of people don’t know this, but one of the first things he printed was indulgences for the Catholic church so people could buy their forgiveness all way out of purgatory.
So that was one of the first things he printed. The. The printing press allowed a lot more access to the scriptures. And before the printing press, I’m sorry, before the printing press, people were generally oral learners. They learned by hearing. For example, in the in Islam, there are people [00:17:00] that will memorize the entire Quran and word for word, they’ll be able to memorize the entire thing.
And often they will lead in prayers at the mosque. That was the way of preserving it from generation to generation is is by knowing it by heart, by memorizing it. For Christianity. There, there’s even a Bible verse and that says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So again, throughout most history, people learn by hearing.
It was with the printing press that allowed people to have access and read for and study for themselves, and which is a huge development in the intellectual development of human kind. So in the [00:18:00]England, there was a man named John Woodcliff, I believe he was in England. He decided to translate, no was Tin decided to translate the Bible into English and he was actually put to death for it.
The Catholic church had one translation Latin Vulgate. I think Jerome was the name of the translator. So the Bible was originally written in Hebrew, in Latin. Jesus spoke Aramaic. That was another language used in in Israel. If you study languages Greek is a very precise language. So we say the word love well, they have multiple words for love.
Feel for like a friendly type, love agape, love for pure type love, ero, erotic type love. So [00:19:00]because of the preciseness of of Greek, it’s easier to translate certain things. So when the printing press happened, Gutenberg did his first print run of the Bible. Wealthy people in Europe were able to buy Bibles for the first time often, and other publishers started building their own printing presses and they started publishing the Bible as well.
In some cases there were crazy mistakes made. There was one Bible that when they, they did the printing plates, there was a mistake. And for like one of the 10 commandments, instead of saying dalt, not the word not was accidentally left out, I think it said Dalt committed adultery. The publisher was arrested and imprisoned.[00:20:00]
So we started seeing the beginnings of the Bible publishing business. In the late 14 hundreds I believe, or early 15 hundreds. And eventually there were organizations, missionary organizations started to try to make disciples around the world. In the 18 hundreds, late 17 hundreds, early 18 hundreds, there was a Christian named William Wilberforce.
He worked with the London Missionary Society and several other societies to do these type of projects. Then you start seeing America start starting to play a big role in this area, in the 18 hundreds, especially the 19 hundreds. The American Bible Society is, I believe, the largest.
[00:21:00] Organization, them and wla Bible translators are two of the biggest organizations in Bible translation, especially Woodcliff. And there is a, like a federation, a group of organizations that they work together. According to Warren’s research it costs approximately $30 million to complete a Bible translation.
One of the problems is some of these languages it’s not so easy to do. You don’t necessarily have a font for them, a typeface for them. So if you sit down at a computer there are some languages that are oral only. So when, when they do a translation, it’s an oral translation, they will use a microphone, they’ll record verse by verse.
But, but the they’re, they’re building databases that help speed up the process. [00:22:00] And the, the process is slowly moving forward. But because it’s so, they, they, these bible translators, sometimes when they’re questioned about the effectiveness of their work it’s really hard for them to be able to answer in a forthright manner.
When you’re doing ministry, you want it to be effective, you want measurable results. And in the case of Bible publishers, a completed Bible translation is a key metric. Well, how many translations can you produce in a. I believe there are approximately 700 languages waiting to be the scriptures waiting to be translated to them or it’s 700, no, I’m sorry.
It’s 700 [00:23:00] languages I’ve been translated from Bible times till now. Sorry. Got my figures wrong. It’s a lot of work to be done and I think people need to be held accountable. So when it comes to translating the scriptures, one of the things that Uff Bible translators will do is they may send a missionary to an area so that they can learn the language.
That’s the first thing. You have to know a language before you can translate the Bible into the language. And the next problem is what if they don’t have words for certain things? Imagine an Indian tribe would they have a word for the, for sword? Would they have a word for chariot? If [00:24:00]they’d never used chariots before, they would not have a word for it.
Well, how would you translate that? Or is there several words that you could use to describe a cart pulled by a horse that would be used in warfare? I mean, so you’re trying to figure out some things. It, it’s a lot of mental work to it. The money often goes from one organization to another organization.
So they will give grants to another organization to support a translation in another language. And. How effective is the organization they’re working with? Does that organization file a form nine 90? Do they disclose it? When you look at these organizations, you can see what their salaries are. [00:25:00] You can go to an faa flight registry and look to see if they own any aircraft.
If they own jets, it’s typically not a good use of donor money. But I mean, there’s a lot of key metrics to look at to try to figure out if an organization is being frugal with the money that’s given to them. Do you
De’Vannon: know who like if a certain person owns, they like the new living Bible or I mean, I mean the Living Bible or the, the New Living translation or the word Bible, like all of those different versions that we have in English.
Does somebody own each of those?
Barry: I would say in some cases, companies do. Publishers would, sometimes you can have a publisher that creates their own English language translation. So Zondervan [00:26:00] they are the copyright holder for the niv, the new international version. The King James is so old that copyright is expired.
Anybody can print a King James Bible.
De’Vannon: Cause what I’m wondering is like, so say Zondervan and I’ve seen their name, you know, in a, in NIV Bibles before, but I never knew what it meant till now. You know? So are they making royalties off of this every time it’s sold or downloaded? That you know of.
Barry: There are websites.
Uverse is one of the biggest ones. They have a Bible. They’ve created a Bible app, so you can download a Bible app to your phone and it’s free. They’re another popular new translation is the esv, the English standard version. [00:27:00] And esv bible.org thinks their website and you can actually listen to the, to it or read it on their website for free without even buying a print version.
But in some cases they, in the past, they would sell the Bible on dvd. There’s one one Bible that there’s an oral version of it. It’s read by famous actors. They read different chapters of the Bible. The, the way this works is the, sometimes it’ll be an academic effort. You’ll have translators from different colleges, Christian seminaries.
These are professors. They’re, they’re experts in biblical languages. So they’ve spent their life [00:28:00] studying the Hebrew and Greek. And so they’ll be put on a committee, and so they will work on a Bible translation. This is actually how the NIV was done. They had a committee a working group that oversaw the translation, so.
And then what happened was, there was, there was, I don’t remember the guy’s name, but you can actually look up a lot of these translations in Wikipedia, for example, and you can find out the history of that translation. But there was, there was a guy that, he used the King James, but did not like it. He did not like the old English, and he wanted a more modern, more current English version.
And so he was the person that got the ball rolling on, on doing the niv for for college [00:29:00]students working on a, on a, getting a PhD, becoming a doctorate. Getting a doctorate degree. Sometimes they study biblical languages and if they work on a Bible translation that looks great on their resume.
So they often do the work.
De’Vannon: I wonder who, even in modern day times, you know, when these people are setting down to translate the Bible, are they making sure that there’s proper representation? Do you have people of all races, all ethnic backgrounds, all sexual orientation backgrounds? My feeling is that, that that’s not quite the case because, you know, when I read through so many different Bible translations and stuff like that, it’s like I don’t, I don’t really, [00:30:00] there’s just like, like you were saying, like there’s not some words that exist, you know, like from, from Arab may that translate, you know, to English.
But tho that’s the same for even like current. Like, how can I say this? Like contemporary languages. So like whenever, like whenever I’m in Japan, you know, my friend lives over there and sometimes I go over there to visit her and everything and, and I’ll be like, well, how do you say this? And she’ll go like, well, we, we don’t say that over here.
That’s just not a part of our culture. That’s just not what we do. You know? And so, and that’s, and that’s for a nation that’s currently like alive right now. And so, so what her point to me is like, don’t think this because you do this in America, that someone, that they do that everywhere else, all over the globe because it may not be a part of their culture.
And so I feel like there is a cultural lack when it comes to [00:31:00] biblical interpretation because not everybody is at the table. So if you have a whole room full of white conservative people, you know, interpreting the Bible, you know, then I feel like that’s the reason why we have a. Women, you know, feeling discredited from the way they’re described in the Bible and, you know, in other races just completely, you know, left out and oit it and things like that.
But do you know anything about, at these organizations actually, who is in there doing it? And if there’s like true diversity?
Barry: I haven’t done a thorough study of that. Original bible translations were generally done by conservative believers. People that I don’t wanna say they had an agenda. They their goal was to make the Bible available so that other people could know it better could learn, [00:32:00] could learn the language.
Could learn what the Bible to say in their own language. So in the Catholic Church, they used a Latin version of the Bible. That was why their masses were spoken in Latin. And it was done that way in the Catholic church for centuries. So during the Reformation period, you had a number of people try to translate the Bible into other languages making it a language of the people.
And some cases it’d be one person doing the translation work. It wasn’t a committee. John Woodcliff Tindel, Martin Luther, they primarily, I did their, their bible translation work alone, I believe. Mm-hmm. . Things have obviously changed. But even in the 19 hundreds, there was one, there have been a couple of guys that have done one.
Basically, one person has authored a Bible translation or [00:33:00] transcript, or not transcript a paraphrase. For example, the Living Bible is a paraphrase. So a paraphrase is taking a, reading a verse and basically putting it into your own words. That’s a paraphrase. When it comes to translations, there is a word for word and there’s thought for thought, a word for word.
You’d read one word and then you try to translate it into one word, the closest that would translate to that. And a word, a thought for thought. You try to take the thought represented and put it into the same thought. Give you an example in one verse in the Bible, Jesus said, asking it shall be given you seeking.
You shall find, knock on the door shall be opening to you. If you read that verse in the Greek, it has a verb tense that we don’t really have. It’s a continuous action. So when you [00:34:00] read some modern translations of that verse, it says, keep on asking and it’ll be given to you. Keep on seeking and you’ll find, keep on knocking and the door will be open into you.
So I mean, that gives you an idea how a translation works. So, but getting back to your original question the people doing these studies, I don’t think they were really concerned a lot with diversity when they first started doing translation work. I think that would be a more recent development. There have been some women that have worked on Bible translations Historically it’s been mostly men doing it, the work.
De’Vannon: But what I’m thankful for is this, is that, you know, knowledge is so much at our fingertips in this day and time that we can go online, we can get our own books, we can interpret the, you know, as much of the original language of the [00:35:00] Bible as we can find, you know, for ourselves. And so it’s as painstaking as that may be.
And it is not easy because I do it myself. So I like to employ this whenever there’s a, a scripture of contests, like, say like the club of passages that the conservative like to use to tell people in my community or we’re gonna burn in hell cuz we’re not straight, you know, or if there’s a script or someone’s trying to use to justify slavery or the demeaning of women and stuff like that.
And so, you know, I don’t go in through the painstaking task of trying to interpret Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Unless it’s something that’s like a big deal like that and somebody’s trying to act like, oh, I absolutely know what this scripture means and there’s no other way to look at it, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then I go in there myself, and I, and I come up with a different interpretation. And, and the whole point, the whole, the whole thing of that I get out of why we have so many of these different translations is [00:36:00] that the, is that it is such, it’s just so subjective. And my whole point of diving into this is to is to get people off of the, the dependency that we can develop on any certain one translation and for God’s sakes, not a person’s translation.
So I wanted people to know there is actually a money trail behind this. And so I feel like that that affects the way it’s interpreted. And so, People can draw their own conclusions. I’m a fan of, of interpreting it myself because at this point I don’t really trust what anyone has to say about the Bible.
You know, I wanna, I just wanna know for myself and when we’re reading an interpretation, it’s important to us to know that humans interpret it. That, you know, and whatever English is print in English is not the original text.
Barry: One of my favorite things is there’s a website Bible hub, and they will take one verse and then list, show it in [00:37:00] a bunch of different Bible translations.
So you can, like Young’s literal translation and, and King James and English Standard version and the New Living Translation. So you can see the different word choices that are used. There are a lot of people that like to see how a favorite verse is translated into different script and different.
Uses different word choices. So for me, as a investigative religious fraud, one of my favorite Bible verses a second Timothy I’m sorry, second Peter two verse three, in the King James version, it’s talking about these false teachers and it says they will make merchandise of us, of, of people.
Basically the idea is they’ve turned, they turned the church into a marketplace. That’s what Jesus noticed when he went into the temple and threw out the money changers. They had turned it into a business, a [00:38:00] marketplace. And you read that same verse in the New Living translation. It’s hilarious. It says, and they’re greed.
They will make a clever lies to get hold of your money. The verses are worded very differently, but I agree 100% with both .
De’Vannon: Well, that brings me to my next point. I wanted to talk about two things. These honorariums, they call them, that preachers pay each other when they go to preach at different churches.
And then the licensing of music, we’ll start with the licensing of music. I personally, as a music writer, I kind of have a problem with the way this seems to be done in churches. So like, if you’re gonna, so say if Hillsong Church is gonna create this album, you’re gonna license it. And then in order for another church to use it, they’re gonna sell it to them.
Like, I think another church has to buy the [00:39:00] rights and things like that to use this music. And so for my perspective, if, if God gives me a song, and this is all supposed to be, you know, divinely inspired and everything like that, I feel bad about taking this song and saying, Hey you church, you can use my worship song, but you have pay me first.
You know, now if it’s a radio station, some sort of syndicated broadcast, that’s different to me because that’s not like a house of worship where people feel like they need to go. You know, you’re listening to the radio or whatever you’re streaming, that’s on iTunes. I’m okay with that business model for worship music, but charging churches, you know, to do it.
I think that that’s fucked up.
Barry: It is a business. So there is, there’s different kinds of rights. There’s copyright, there’s performance rights, there’s [00:40:00] broadcast rights, and there are companies that manage all these different kinds of rights. There have been churches sued for having performed songs for and didn’t pay for appropriate license.
churches have been sued. I mean, and so that’s why it’s become a business. Trying to, I lost my train of thought for a moment. Okay. So I took a media law class in college. That was one of the things that we had to learn about was copyright. And copyright has an expiration date. It’s changed over the years.
So I believe now it’s like it expires a certain number of years after the original author dies. And if the [00:41:00] person lives a very long life, it can expire at a very, a long distance into the future. The, there’s an organization, creative Commons, creative commons.org is, I believe, their website.
They wanted to. Create a movement for the allow of resharing of information. And so they created a number of licenses and these are alternatives to regular copyright. So the way that the US copyright law is written, if you write something, you’re the original copyright holder. It can get complicated.
If you’re hired by a church and you do what’s called a work for hire, then the copyright can belong to the church. But for Creative Commons, they created a [00:42:00] public domain license. This is a work would then be in the public domain. Anybody could use it for whatever purpose. They, you could take their lyrics or their music rewrite, rewrite it.
Remix it, whatever, and for free, there’s no payments required. They have what’s called an attribution license where people can use, reuse your original content as long as they give attribution. And so this is often used by photographers. For example, they’ll post their pictures online with, at attribution license.
Then you can use their photos to illustrate an article that you write and you just credit the photographer. There are licenses that provide for share and share alike. There are some that are for non-commercial only use. [00:43:00] So, and they give you a wide range of, of ways to work with content. And I believe that’s a better model than what we’re seeing right now.
There’s a guy named Carl Entz, who I believe we discussed in a previous podcast. He was a preacher at Hillsong. His dad Steven Entz, wrote a book, the Business of Church, and he wrote about copyright. And he suggested that a pastor could could, well normally the church would own the copyright of a sermon.
The pastor be a work for a hire, what he says. But what he said that you could also, a pastor could license their sermons to the church. And so I don’t feel very good about that. I think when you start doing stuff like that, then you preaching becomes about what can make the most money, [00:44:00]what can you sell the most?
And worship music has become big business. Nowadays, fewer people are buying. Albums. Well actually LPs have seen a big increase in sales. It’s weird. Who has seen a increase in sales albums? LPs records have had a increase in sales. I think it’s people in nostalgia for old albums collectors buying them on vinyl.
But a lot of people would buy a song from iTunes or instead of entire album. So records have become a big business. Or the, or gospel worship. Worship music become a big business in the church. Hillsong has made a lot of money. [00:45:00] I believe they sold 20 million albums. That’s the Celtic I’ve seen for Hill.
De’Vannon: I don’t know this, it’s something with this like, like what you’re saying with this merchandising and you know, and everything like that, you know, it seems so innocent. Oh, we’re just gonna sell a few things and, you know, the way they package it and, you know, in church, you know, here take this sermon homes, you can listen to it again and again and still be blessed and you know, get this book, get this, you know, get these conferences.
You know, I used to be a member of the Church of God in Christ, and I had, I reached out to the headquarters. I wanted to go overseas and do a missions working, something like that, you know, and it was very, the missions page on their, on the international headquarters website [00:46:00] didn’t have anything there.
And so I emailed them. , I got informa, I think I got as far as to the gatekeeper for like the, the bishop maybe, you know, of the, of the whole hand of the whole church of God, Christ. And then they like just stopped responding because I couldn’t, you know, I wanted to go do missions. I think there was a way that they would fund it or something like that, but it didn’t seem like they really wanted to do it.
What they did have up to date though, was their page that had all of their conferences coming up, you know, the speakers and all of that. And I just thought that that was pretty shitty because I’m like, you are always sending these preachers here and there and raising this money, but when I’m trying to talk to you about philanthropy in humanitarian efforts, that’s gonna cost you money, then the line went cold, , you know, and so, and and there’s a verse in the book of Revelation that has always stuck out to me is in Revelation chapter 18.[00:47:00]
And it starts around, you know, verse 10 ish. And this is talking about when they say Babylon, the great is fall. And there’s all kinds of different interpretation of what, what they think Babylon means. Is it you know this or is it that? I think Babylon stands for a great many forms of corruption of humanity, but I’m gonna read this anyway.
And it says, in the kings of the earth, who have committed for occasion and lived deliciously with her shall BeWell her and lament her when they shall see the smoke of her burning. Standing a far off for the fear for a torment, saying, alas will last that great city, Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is your judgment come And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buys their merchandise anymore.
The merchandise of gold and silver and precious stones and of pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet and all thy wood and all manner of vessels of ivory and all [00:48:00] manner vessels of most precious wood and of brass and iron and marble and cinnamon and odors and ointments and frankincense and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and beasts and sheep and horses and chariots and slaves and souls of men.
And I just thought it was very interesting after listing this really, really, really long list of material things that it ends unlike humanitarian issues and the destruction of people. So as we’re talking about all of this buying and trading and selling in the temple, I personally feel like from the churches to like a lot of these social media companies and things like that, and they’re haste to make money and then they’re greed and stuff like that.
They’re sacrificing people in the process. And I think that, that this verse is talking that these verses that I just [00:49:00] read are talking about that. But what do you think about the, what I just read
Barry: There is different ways of interpreting the book of Revelation. It’s very fascinating. So it deals with end times.
A word for that is eschatology study. End times. And basically the Bible teaches that wickedness is gonna bound. People’s hearts grow cold because of, of wickedness lawlessness of people and because of hypocrisy. And because of that, God will eventually pour out his wrath upon mankind and there will be punishment for sin.
And there will, people have made commerce [00:50:00] an idol. They’ve made the entertainment industry an idol, social media and idol, all these kind of things, idols, they put ahead of God and things that they hold dear have become idols and they will see their idols destroyed. That’s one of the ways that I see that passage.
The. Experience that you had with Koji? With the conferences, I actually wrote an article about the these conference businesses the hum the speaking fees of honorariums. And I think there’s a legitimate need and opportunity for people to network. A conference can be a great place to network and meet people.
I’ve gone to film festivals, for [00:51:00] example. I previously worked in the film industry years ago, and so going to a film festival, you meet lots of like-minded people. You meet writers, filmmakers, actors, actresses people that wanna get their start in the industry. And so, You meet people and develop friendships that way, and then you go see their movie on when they have a movie coming out, and I know them.
So it, it’s a different experience than seeing a movie by nobody, you know. And so I do enjoy the aspects of networking. I’ve been to conferences before and that was my favorite part about it. But for the motive of the people throwing on the conference, what is their motive? And we know that like not this week, but the previous week so this would’ve been around the end of July [00:52:00] or beginning of August, my mind’s have gone.
Kenneth Copeland had his conference it’s called the Southwest Believes Convention, and. It was in Fort Worth, Texas. Televangelist like Jesse de Plans would fly into Fort Worth to preach and then fly back to where he is from, and then the next day, fly right back to Fort Worth and then fly back to new Orleans.
I don’t think he likes to stay in hotels. Just a theory I have. Why would a person make multiple trips to day after day? It’s weird to me cause those are, those trips, those flights cost thousands of dollars and but to put on a convention like that, you have to bring in a lot of money to pay for all those [00:53:00]speakers.
And if you’re doing that, then do you pay for their transportation? Do you pay for their jet to fly? I mean, that could have been 20,000, $40,000. I don’t know. I’m guessing at a bare minimum it costs $20,000 for all those flights. I mean, you have to pay for the fuel, you have to pay for the pilots.
And that’s just an unnecessary expense. The conference business I think it’s a lot of gamemanship. You speak at my conference and I’ll speak at yours. So it’s a way of self-promoting each other. I wrote an article about honorariums. It’s on the Trinity Foundation website, and I, I looked at nine 90 s for non-profit organizations.
[00:54:00] Sometimes they will disclose honorarium revenue. Sometimes they’ll disclose honorarium expenses. So for example, some pastors or or ministry leaders, They speak at a location, but you have to pay ’em a speaking fee of their organization. So that’s revenue to the organization. And so that’s how that shows up.
For honorary expenses, sometimes like when you host a conference, you’re paying an outside speaker and they list that on their statement of expenses page. There are organizations that will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in honorariums. In the past, TBN did that, that have special guests for their beon and for some of their a praise the Lord broadcasts.
And so they would spend literally, I think in some cases, over $700,000 a year on speaking honorariums.
De’Vannon: I know when I was at one church in Southern California, they, you know, they had a speaker there, they already paid for her to come down. [00:55:00] They decided they want her to stay for one more sermon. And they were like, we’ll give her $10,000 to, to preach again, you know, for one more hour or whatever.
And of course she was like, yes, Lord. You know, and everything like that. And the highest I saw them go was maybe like 30,000, you know, now we’re talking about for one sermon for about an hour. You know, to me that’s exorbitant because it was US tithing, you know, and paying for them. It’s not like the preacher was doing that.
So what you’re saying is Right, so these preachers have this whole brotherhood or whatever to include the sisters too. And they’re like, okay, you got your church, I got mine. We’re gonna come speak at each other’s church, and we’re gonna pay each other about 10 to 30,000 each. Right. Cool. And so , now the.
Barry: The craziest thing I’ve heard of is a seed twice. So this is how I consider it a scam. The seed twice. [00:56:00] So Kenneth Copeland does this. You give him, wait, he gives your ministry a donation and then you give him a donation. It’s a seed twice. So , you’re getting your money back. , in some
De’Vannon: cases. Wait, say that
they call it a seed twice. Some you donate to one organization and then that organization donates back to you.
De’Vannon: which organization? His, he’s talking about his church.
Barry: Yeah. Eagle Mountain International Church. It’s also known as Kenneth Copeland Ministries. But yeah, he does this C twice zone thing. He gives donations to different organizations and then they give him a donation.
De’Vannon: I don’t get it. So he’s gonna do, so he’s personally donating to another church. His
Barry: organization gives a donation, his church donates to an organization, and that [00:57:00]donation, that organization donates back to him. What’s the point? You get your money back. It looks great on, Hey, we spent this amount of money on ministry, but you’re getting your money back
That’s what it looks
De’Vannon: like to me. So it, so Kenneth Cole Ministry is gonna donate a thousand dollars to feed the children or whatever, but then they’re going to also donate a thousand dollars back to Kenneth Cole Ministry. Sometimes
Barry: they may not donate the full amount but I think it’s a way for a bunch of organizations to put on a balance sheet or something that we, they can promote it.
They can say, Hey, our audited financial statement, we gave this amount of money to ministry.
De’Vannon: Hmm. Oh, so they’re like scratching each other. There’s backs in a way, and they’re moving money around to manipulate the tax system. Okay, you
Barry: give me the money and then I get it back. I mean, [00:58:00] that’s what it looks like.
They’d probably eject to the way that I describe it, but that’s what it looks like to me. , but that’s what they call it. See, twice soon.
De’Vannon: They probably rejected this whole podcast , not just this episode. , it’s the whole thing altogether. You know, the people who raised me though, like my evangelist Nelson, who I talk about a lot, you know, you know, they, when they traveled the country, and the world preaching and they always said that they never charged people to go.
They were like, if God’s gonna send me over here or, or whatever, then he’s also going to provide, now I’m talking about people who were probably born in like the twenties, 1920s, thirties, forties, that sort of thing. So these people were old. And so I think she was 80 when she died about three, four years ago.
And so you can do the math to see probably when she was born, but she never, you know, she felt like [00:59:00] God was calling her to Washington DC to go preach. And she had a relationship with that church as I understand it. You know, we, you know, might raise money to help her go, or she would pay for herself or something like that.
But she wasn’t like, I ain’t showing up unless you have this amount of money. You know, it wasn’t anything like that. Now they did once they would get there, you know, if they wanted to raise a speaker. A speaker’s offering, then it’s whatever that amount would be. It’s not like it had to be a minimum for it to show up, you know, for the speaker to show up.
And so I feel like her style was more in line with how the apostles started doing Jesus’s ministry. You know, they took what they had and went out and preached the word and they kind of took care of these, of these preachers when they got to different towns. I don’t find anywhere in the scripture where go and preach the gospel, but only do it if you’re paid a minimum amount of money.
Barry: you know, I don’t, that [01:00:00] verse isn’t there,
De’Vannon: And so what this is, is the church being very hypocritical and wanting to look like the world. And so if it’s something that the church doesn’t want you to do, drink, masturbate, have sex outside of marriage, or generally enjoy your life. They’re like, you don’t want to be like the world. We can’t have you being worldly rah ra ra, ra.
But when it comes down to finances, they want to pattern themselves after Fortune 500 companies and they wanna pattern themselves after the world. They’re like, why shouldn’t we make, it’s the same thing as a corporate executive does. Why shouldn’t we make the same thing every other speaker does? It’s because we’re in the church doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be paid.
Right. So then it’s okay to be like the world .
Barry: Well, some of these preachers, I don’t think they believe a word they preach . And I don’t wanna name names, but we have an [01:01:00] informant that told us about a pastor that was an atheist. He didn’t pray. And in fact, I just mentioned that in one of the articles that I posted this morning.
I can’t identify the preacher’s name. He’s definitely on our radar. But there’s a preacher that he’s an atheist agnostic. He doesn’t believe what happened is it, I’d wrote an article about privacy laws preventing transparency. Attorney Foundation did a report on him to the irs and we’re not able to know the status of that report because of the way the IRS laws are.
But yeah, preacher doesn’t believe the Bible. It’s just a scam to get money. Preaches the Prosperity Gospel, but he doesn’t believe the Bible. And and there are, there are [01:02:00] a number of preachers that I would put in the same category. Obviously I can’t read their minds. There’s a guy named Mike Murdoch.
I have serious doubts that he believes what he, some of the stuff that he preaches, Tilton. Robert Tilton. I seriously be doubt he believes some of the things that he’s said. Again, that’s my own opinion. But I just, some of the things they say, don’t look authentic to me, don’t look real. And some of these people are the ones really pushing the prosperity gospel.
De’Vannon: It’s I’ve observed a pattern, like when I was still in the church, they would do this thing and they were doing like escalating offering amounts, so they would be like, , they would get every one all pumped up. We want you to give a hundred dollars and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or perhaps deescalating.
It would go [01:03:00] both ways. Sometimes they would make a whole big deal out of somebody who they were to give a thousand or a hundred, and then they’d go, okay, well if you can’t do that, then we’ll take 80 huge blessings come your way, miracles and all of that, not that, and we’ll take 60, you know, whatever. Then they’ll work their way down the 20.
You know, at first I thought maybe it was a legit thing, but then I noticed other preachers doing this at different churches, you know, if I’m recalling correctly. So it’s like they were borrowing best practices and then saying that it was divinely inspired every time they did. . And one time when I was at this church in Southern California, I went to go give, like the last few dollars I had, it was like three or $4.
I’m thinking I’m gonna be like, you know, the lady who gave the two mites or whatever and be honored, the preacher, he was like, I don’t need this . You know, he like, he like rejected my offering because it wasn’t at his minimum. And so because they have this mind, [01:04:00] right? They have this, these preachers, they have this mindset that they’re worth so much.
They’re like, I shouldn’t, you know, don’t give me any less than $20. That’s, that seems to be the standard. And they were like, I don’t want an offering. If you’re gonna gimme less than 20. And then they would turn around and try to prime us up and be like, if you have somebody out there who’s broke them, even let them ride in your car, you don’t want that rubbing off on you.
You know, if they don’t, you know if there’s somebody who’s gonna pull you down. I’m like, well, Jesus wouldn’t have told me to not give someone a ride because they don’t have, they don’t make over 40,000 a year or a hundred thousand or whatever, you know? Yikes. ,
Barry: did you see the news about the recent preacher that was allegedly robbed of him and his wife of jewelry worth a million dollars?
De’Vannon: That does sound vaguely familiar, but
Barry: just recently, a couple weeks ago, this event happened on a Sunday and [01:05:00] in New York City, and the preacher looks like a conman. I mean, you, like, how does a pastor afford a Rolls Royce? I mean, you look in his Instagram videos and he does some of these videos inside his car, and if you look on some on the headrests, they have the double R, that’s the Rolls Royce symbol there, and you’re like, okay, are you using church funds to pay for this lifestyle?
The IRS has a standard for pay. It’s called a reasonableness. If something is not considered, if it’s considered unreasonable, then it should be illegal. Or you should be taxed extra for it. That’s I’m in regards to non-profit salaries. And churches are nonprofits.
De’Vannon: Yeah, I’m looking at this guy now.
Well, perhaps the Lord made it right, you know, he [01:06:00] robbed others. Now his ass got robbed. You know, God is not mock. Whatever you, so you will reap. The Lord didn’t tell me he was, this was his karma. I’m just saying. I don’t know. Seemed like with all that money, he might have had better security. ,
Barry: there’s a person on the stage sitting in a chair or, or next to the stage, let say this person is sitting in a chair when this so-called robbery happens.
And it’s interesting watching that person’s mannerisms as he is watching this go down. He does not look scared to me anyway. And when I see that, I’m wondering, okay, is this insurance fraud? Is he, is this actually a scam? I mean, that’s what it looks like to me. I mean, obviously I’m not a juror and I don’t have any inside information, but it doesn’t look legitimate to me.
Doesn’t look authentic.
De’Vannon: Oh, so you think it’s like a scam and he knew it was gonna happen. ?
Barry: Yes. Totally.
De’Vannon: Looks like a scam. . [01:07:00] No, it has been done. It has been done. So, so knowing all these things we know about churches, People like you and I work to inform people so that they can be more aware of where they’re spending their time, where they’re spending their money, where they’re investing their trust.
People still are gonna go to these churches no matter what we say. Some people might stop. So why is it that we fall for this prosperity Gospel? Why do we keep going to these churches? I did it like I’m, I’m, I sat there, listened to these people telling me things that I knew was bullshit, that that preacher rejected my dollars that I wanted to give them.
And I still kept going to that church. You know why? I know I started going to these churches? Cause it was just really nice to hear a preacher being somewhat positive rather than growing up in the south where everything’s a sin and you just can’t do any fucking thing. So it was a lesser of two evils.
But the person I am now, I’m like, you know what? I don’t need any [01:08:00] church at all. I know how to go to God for myself. So, Why do you think people still put themselves in front of this abuse, even with, you know, all this knowledge that we’re giving them?
Barry: When I was a teenager, we had an event one night with our youth group.
It was a lock in. And so in the midst of all these entertaining things that we did, games, et cetera, we had some Bible studies and et cetera and discussion times. And we had a discussion about what did you wanna become, what did you wanna be in life? And as our group when to discuss that sort of like became a thing.
Everybody wanted to be successful. And I think that’s right at the heart of the Prosperity Gospel, people wanna be valid. They wanna be seen as a success. They do not want, they wanna be [01:09:00]self-reliant. They don’t wanna depend on anyone for anything. So when a preacher preaches that you can get your heart’s desire, if you do this you’ll get, well, if you do this, your debts will be paid if you do this.
People sometimes are desperate and it’s sometimes the desperate people that are donating to the Prosperity Gospel preachers. Often it’s the poorest of the poor that donate to ’em. We know for a fact that there was one preacher that was deliberately send letters to people in low income zip codes.
They give more than wealthy people.
I mean, it’s, it’s sad targeting the poorest of the poor, but that’s what they do. And it’s a white [01:10:00] preacher targeting neighborhoods that are, a lot of them are black. I call it racism. What he’s doing I believe it’s absolutely evil. What how this is being done and why do people keep doing it?
Some are desperate. Some have bought into the Prosperity Gospel. They, they wanna be rich. I think it’s, sometimes it’s people, they just haven’t heard the truth and they’re, they don’t, they’ve, because of that, they accepted a lie. If they had a preacher instead of preaching the prosperity gospel was, would, would teach things like.
there’s a Bible verse where Jesus said, the poor will always be with you. You didn’t say you everybody would be rich. If, if, if they, you had a preacher that was telling them a different message. [01:11:00] I think some people would be, more people would be open to it, but it just, that’s all they hear. And one one of the verses that I mentioned earlier was the verse where asking shall be given you, seeking you shall find.
Seeking is a big part of scripture. There’s a Bible verse in the Old Testament where it says, it’s the glory of God to conceal a matter, the glory of kings to seek it out. Mm-hmm. . So God deliberately conceals the truth. He wants us to look for it. There’s another verse in the Bible that says to study, to show yourself approved on demand so you can rightfully divide the word of truth.
Basically, we need to study the word on our own. We can’t rely on just someone to tell us everything. And so I think people have not been taught to seek the scriptures to learn for themselves. They’ve not been taught to do [01:12:00] that.
De’Vannon: No, not until now, because motherfuckers like you and I are preaching, you know, you know, autonomy to people.
I want people to not only study the Bible, but to study these motherfucking preachers because you know, you’re investing, like, you’re literally trusting your entire eternity and soul to this person on stage. You know, they have an entity to run, so no, they’re not going to tell you to go. They go. So follow God without them, they need you to keep coming back to the church.
I don’t have an agenda other than I want you to be spiritually fit and spiritually independent so that if those churches fall, if organized, religion should fall and you don’t know what the hell is gonna happen from one day to the next. You’re not sitting there. Like in a spiritual limbo. Cause you don’t know what to do.
You can’t go to church, you can’t do this. The saddest thing that I heard from the war in Ukraine was there was a Ukrainian lady who was fighting against the Russians and she was like, I’m not afraid to die. I’m just afraid to die because I haven’t had a [01:13:00] chance to make it to confession. Like, you know, that’s too much control for the church to have over somebody’s eternity, for you to think that you can even repent until you can go and talk to a physical human.
There was no point in Jesus coming if it was gonna be all that. And so, so I want people to. study their leaders, like we were talking about before we hopped on this broadcast. I want people to find out when these different, all these teachers and preachers are running around these churches, when the hell are these people really called?
You know? Are they really called? How do you know that, you know, there has to be some sort of reason in the Bible. No, Lord, you know, appears to people. There’s a moment when they’re not called. There’s a moment where there is, you know, something has to change. You know? Was it a dream? Was it a vision? You know, don’t just accept them because they’re up on stage and, and we’re wrapping up now.
So after I say all this, I’m gonna let you say whatever you wanna say and have a last word. I, I do not believe that just because somebody is the son of a preacher or they [01:14:00] inherit a ministry, I don’t, I don’t subscribe to this whole, everybody in the family is called, you know, you know, God. I just, I just don’t, because in the Bible,
I don’t see like many situations and I can’t, I can’t think of any right now where the mom, the dad, the aunts, the uncles, all the kids, everybody has a special mission from God. I don’t see family ministries, you know, you know, that span generations in these, you know, in these books. And so, and even kings, you know, you know, the, you know, the bloodline of Abraham, you know, is different, you know, and then we’re talking about even then just the son was the leader and everything like that.
And then even at that, he technically wasn’t a priest, you know? And so, you know, so this, everybody’s called, I question it. And so what I’m seeing now is like, These, these kids or these preachers are starting to preach. You know, I saw one [01:15:00] not too long ago, you know, I’m not gonna say the preacher’s name, but you know, both parents are rich.
Now he’s starting to preach and he’s talking about telling people you know, about being poor and how they’re gonna make it, you know, and they hard times and everything like that. And I’m all like, boy, what the fuck you know about hard times? You know, I don’t, especially financial hard times, you know, so these, these children are preaching what they know people want here, but you have not lived on food stamps, social security, food and security, not knowing how you’re gonna keep the lights on.
That is not a life, you know, because you were born a millionaire. And so now that you are a preacher’s kid and you were born rich, you’re gonna get up there and, and speak this package match message that you know you can sell to your audience. I don’t. I don’t know. That just pisses me off.
Barry: My dad was a minister and he felt [01:16:00] called of God to become a minister. It’s not what he wanted to do. My dad wanted to be a professional baseball player. He loved sports, but he ended up becoming a minister. His title was Minister of Education and Outreach. He worked in several Baptist churches over his career.
And so in his job he would train Bible teachers and recruit Bible teachers for the church. He would visit the hospitals each week he would visit nursing homes each week. And he enjoyed serving people that they couldn’t do anything for. Going to see somebody that’s sick in a hospital, seeing somebody in a nursing home that’s weak and they can’t go anywhere.
He would bring joy to their lives. Some of these people, they wouldn’t have any family members visiting them during the week and just him going to, and to see them, [01:17:00] it made their day. And so that was the type of home that I grew up in. One time there was a family they moved to where we lived in Louisiana.
They were, he was job hunting, the dad, the husband they had a newborn child and they’re broke. Homeless. We let them live with us and our house for months, I think about six months. So we took in the homeless. That’s what I believe real Christianity’s about. It’s about sacrifice, not success.
It’s about taking up your cross and following me, and that doesn’t include a dollar bill and profits.
De’Vannon: Yeah, that sounds super sincere. You know, his part, he sounds like he was accessible to people and not like the big guy on stage. You know, who we have to stand in line [01:18:00] with. Maybe they’ll sign our book even though they’re our pastor
Barry: When our Sunday service would end Sunday morning, my dad almost always would try to be at the back door of the church. When people were leaving, he would greet people. So he would shake people’s hands and say hi. He wanted to greet everybody. He wanted people to get to know who he was.
My dad loved visitation. He loved visiting people in their homes. That’s, again, something that’s going outta style. Fewer and fewer people doing are doing church visitation. Also, there’s more and more of a mindset of my home as my castle. It’s a place of privacy. And so you see less of that, of people inviting people into their homes.
I think partly it’s cause people like Jo’s witnesses going door to door. A lot of of people don’t like that. And for example, Mormons doing that. I, [01:19:00] I think it, it really turns people off. But my dad, he would visit people. We would have a church visitor card that when people, somebody visited and if they wanted a visit, they could let us know.
So there, there’s a Bible verse where it, a chapter where it lists a number of these spiritual gifts. One of ’em is the gift of hospitality. I mean, there are people when, when I was young, my mom would invite people over to eat with us on a Sunday afternoon after church. And we would get to know people.
That was one of the things that my dad enjoyed doing. He wanted to get to know all the members of the church. Again, we were not in a megachurch, but the church probably had three or 400 members, I’m guessing. So that’s the thing. Real disciple makers really make themselves accessible to people. [01:20:00] I don’t know.
And thank you for letting me on your podcasts. Oh, those were your last
De’Vannon: words? Yes. Okay. Well, you know what? That, that, that is good enough. So, And the way you describe that science sound makes me feel all warm and tingly. Everybody out there, you’re gonna have to decide what works for you. Whatever happens.
Be sure that your most important time, the time that you spend with God, don’t be like, well, I need to go to church to get a prayer, or I need to go to church to feel God. No, just like any other relationship, your most important time is when you’re alone. You know, if you’re dating someone, if you’re married to someone, your most valuable time is not with you in a, when you’re in a theater full of people.
So I don’t think it’s any different with the Lord. So just get close to God and he will reveal to you all truth in its time. Thank you all for listening. We’ll see you next time.
Thank you all so much for [01:21:00] taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.
My name is De’Vannon, and it’s been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right.