INTRODUCTION:
Master Joshua:
Why I do what I do
My whole purpose is to help people self-actualize. I’ve walked my own journey of identity for as long as I can remember. And in my life’s journey, adversity, stress, anger and sadness all came in different forms. What I do with my work is take the experience of trying to find myself, my struggles with self-acceptance and help clear paths so that people can ask themselves these questions. We talk through it. I want people to find their authenticity in expression and existence, to be able to sit in their truth not just in BDSM, but in their entire life.
I needed to accept myself around my struggles with resentment about the color of my skin and my stress around expression. What was it like to find peace within myself? What did it mean to work through my relationships and find peace, and to find peace spiritually and religiously? What would that be like for you?
I teach folks to empower themselves. I provide one-on-one training, couples training, and group training. For those folks who want to pursue the BDSM route of self-actualization through submission, to really experience those desires, I curate and guide them through an introspective journey. I provide guidance to people trying to discover themselves. These are the various options for the time I spend with people, for personal growth and spiritual development, through the lens of BDSM.
I will empower you through experience and introspection. I will help you find the power of your voice. We will find a way to get your soul to the surface. We will remove blockages and build our own community. Let me help you. Healing through the lens of BDSM, the space we hold is sacred. The feelings and the emotions run deep. Upon reflection of the lives we live, we stand in a judgment-free zone in a space that is empowering in truth. That’s what I get to create. That’s what I create for you.
My purpose in all of this has been to witness other people’s experiences in life, to capture them in my memory and to use all this knowledge to help others find peace within themselves. With permission I photograph what I witness. I bring all of this experience to bear on how I help you, and in this way, you will contribute to help me to help others find themselves.
Let’s connect with all parts of yourself. Let’s acknowledge the wide range of personality we all have.
Karma Said:
My (pen) name is Karma Said. I’m Master Joshua’s sex slave, and a happily married (to another man) mother of two. I’m the author of “Surviving Master Joshua: The BDSM Memoir Of An Unfaithful Wife” (Carnal Culture, April 2022). When Joshua and I met, I was a staff reporter for a reputable conservative publication, and Joshua was research. But, following Him deeper and deeper into New York’s sexual underground, I crossed the line between observer and participant, right and wrong. I started out in this lifestyle as a cheater… turning that around reshaped more than just our own lives. At its core, our story is one of an uplifting personal transformation; it also showcases the lifestyle of one of the most sensationalized and least understood factions in LGBTQA+.
INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):
· The Role Of The Dominant
· Healing Found In The Kink Community
· Validation Found Within The Kink Community
· Gaining Power Over Sex Addiction Through Kink
· Me Too Accusations
· Talking About Things That Really Matter
· BDSM & Religion
· BDSM Definitions
· The Importance Of Aftercare
· A Sweet Breakdown Of Harnesses
CONNECT WITH MASTER JOSHUA:
Website: https://masterjoshua.com/
Website: https://carnalculturepublishing.com/
Book: https://survivingmasterjoshua.com
MASTER JOSHUA’S RECOMMENDATIONS:
SSDCE: https://ssdce.org
The Kink Collective: https://kinkcollective.net
CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON:
Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com
Website: https://www.DownUnderApparel.com
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesus
YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/
Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com
DE’VANNON’S RECOMMENDATIONS:
· Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)
o https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370
o TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs
· OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)
o https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible
· Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)
· Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin
o https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com
· Upwork: https://www.upwork.com
· FreeUp: https://freeup.net
VETERAN’S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS
· Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org
· American Legion: https://www.legion.org
· What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg
INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:
· PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.
https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon
TRANSCRIPT:
Karma & Master Joshua
[00:00:00]
De’Vannon: You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.
There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.
Joshua and his happily married to another man. Sex Slave Karma said are here to tell us their whole truth, and they’re doing it with boldness and with zero shame. Y’all master Joshua is a professional dominant. , which is the male equivalent of a dominatrix, and also he’s a non-traditional sexual behaviors consultant.
Now, carer wrote a book called B D S M, memoir of an unfaithful Wife, and well [00:01:00] look, all I have to say is fucking wow.
This conversation is deep and unadulterated in a way I’ve never done before.
I mean, if you really wanna see something new, watch us on my YouTube channel because we take off our tops as I reveal to the world my special red and black harness for the first time. So if y’all wanna see these tits pop on over to the YouTube channel, baby.
Enjoy .
Ooh, y’all. I’ve really, really, really, really, really been looking forward to this one here. Now, y’all all know me and my boyfriend have a, an open relationship, and we’re new into the kingery and stuff like that. We’re little baby virgins, and at least in that aspect all over again. But today I have with me on the sex drugs in Jesus podcast, a master
Master Joshua: I’m blushing, [00:02:00]
De’Vannon: a master. His name is Master Joshua. And Karma is it print property. Call you his slave, submissive, sex slave. Sex slave. And they have written a book called Surviving Master Joshua’s, a memoir of an unfaithful Wife . And that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today. How are the two of you beautiful souls doing today?
Master Joshua: Doing really well. Really excited to be on this morning. To, to talk about it. Being able to, to have Karma’s story out there accessible is really exciting and important to me. Cuz she’s worked really hard at it. She’s dealt with me for four years to turn it out. .
Karma: Yeah. It’s a culmination of a big, big personal transformation and it’s a, for me, it’s a big personal victory to be able to talk about it cuz like the title says it’s a V d s m memoir of an unfaithful wife.
So that’s where we start off from and it [00:03:00] ends with us being able to talk openly. And I still have my family so
De’Vannon: You do. But it was, it was, it was a process and it’s so interesting to see like how, you know, how you evolve in the story from. Somebody who’s like, kind of timid about it all. It’s by the end of the book.
And you know, really the end of the book, you’re like, you know, like, it’s like there’s like this cutting going on and stuff like that that we’re gonna talk about, you know, later. And I guess it was fascinating to me that part three of this book is basically like one chapter. It’s, it’s like, it’s like PO Box, I think it was like 1125 or, you know, something, something along those lines.
And you know, the, you know, so that, that lets me know how important that that one section is. You know, that you separated it like that, you know, so, okay. I wanna get into y’all’s very, very, very titillating like history [00:04:00] now. Now Master Joshua, I believe you’ve been doing this for at least like 20 years, I believe.
No, I,
Master Joshua: I I’ve been doing it professionally for about a decade. I actually have to sit down and do my timelines again cuz I’ve been saying a decade for a minute now. But I’ve been on my own personal journey. You know, there’s levels to it cuz I can, I can remember a story I to I was told about when I was five and I would rub my aunt’s nylons and they would, it would excite me as a five year old.
Stimulating my body was a sexual in nature. No, it was all sensation and stimulation, right? I lost my virginity at 12. That’s another major turning point in my life. I had my first child at 18, 19 having to deal with family court at 19. These are all different layers of my own identity and journey that, that all matter up until the point where I’m at today, you know, for all of us.
But my purpose was [00:05:00] discovered about 10 years ago when I started doing this professionally. And by purpose, I mean people come to me for self-actualization and safety and submission. Being able to have someone hold space for them where they can be. Authentically themselves, you know, one piece at a time because you don’t just jump out of the closet, right?
It’s like being deviant as some people call us, being perverted as some people call call us kinky fetishists. It’s not easy because we’re not the norm right now. The coolest part about it is that everybody wants something. It’s just shame and fear and safety, right? People don’t feel safe enough to be vulnerable, to be able to open those doors.
My role is to be that safety for people to open the doors either in events that I produce or one-on-one sessions or intensives that we host. That’s how I found power over sex addiction. And it was incredibly life changing to be able to [00:06:00] say no. Right? Just that simple word. No. And it really put the power back in my hand around who do I connect with and who do I not?
De’Vannon: you say you’ve got the victory over sex addiction. At what point did you feel like you were a sex addict and why?
Master Joshua: Oh, I mean, , I have four kids. I have four different w moms. I I would go outta my way in severe ways, detrimental ways to have sex. Right? It, it, I I had to, I was mandated to attend a program once, and while I was there, I was one of those guys sitting in the back like, why the fuck am I here?
I’m not one of these guys. And, you know, for substance, I wasn’t. Right. It was, it was a, an eye-opening experience though, cuz as I heard people’s telling of the stories of their relationship with substances, that was my relationship with sex, the [00:07:00] things that they were ruining about their lives, the relationships that they were tanking financially, what they were doing, how irresponsible they were being.
That was my relationship with sex. And that’s how I know sex addiction is a thing. To get over it. It took a long time. I had a really intense relationship with sex. And I’m glad to be able to look back at it and say, this is what happened. And this is what was the turning point for me.
De’Vannon: I was thinking about that earlier today about how addictions how we get carried away with desires.
So be it drugs or the pursuit of money. People get addicted to their careers, people get addicted to their children, people get addicted to all sorts of things and but it’s some sort of pleasure there that we tend to, to, to not be able to get enough of what I think that’s [00:08:00] beautiful about what you’re saying and a part of the reason why I.
You know, take issue with a lot of like more anti elu addiction theories. Like, say the anonymous program says if you’ve been an addict, you can never stop being one. You can’t ever do a drug again. So like, so somebody who’s like an identified sex addict, you know, it’s not gonna stop ever having sex.
You’re gonna find a way to get that shit together. Cause it is unrealistic to think just because you were once a sex addict, you’re never gonna have sex again. You know? And I feel that. So I, I, I appreciate the fact that you’ve done that, and I commend you for that. But I feel like it’s the same way with people who were once addicts and drug addicts.
I don’t feel like you always have to be one. I feel like you could learn girl, how to not do your crystal methyl cocaine every damn day, but just to deal with every now and then and still be fine. ,
Master Joshua: listen. No, listen. This is my theory around that. Right? If people were to handle their problem, They would be good.
Right? But that’s the hard part. This, the addiction is the easy way out of the problems. [00:09:00] The hard work is looking at the problems and it’s okay that you resort to substance. It’s okay that you fail sometimes. Just keep trying. Just get up and do the next right thing. It’s, it’s not easy, right? It sounds easy, but it’s not.
It’s not. It’s a simple solution. But by no stretch of the imagination, easy because it all starts with integrity. Right? And what we try to do, what I tried to do with this relationship and we’ll, and we’ll get into it, is I try to circumvent morals with ethics. Right? And you can’t circumvent morals, right?
Ethics are manmade rules around human relations and what it is to do good morals are like universal law, right? And the basis of this book is built off of our developed relationship connection into a deep relationship where. I have the perspective of I only need her permission. I only need her consent.
Right. Ethically, morally, that’s not the truth. [00:10:00] The truth is I needed to know all the ducks were in a row before opening that door, but I, I got selfish in it too because she provided me a safe space. And we’ll get, we’ll get into that cuz it’s, we’re human beings, right? And we make choices that aren’t always the right thing.
Well, sometimes they’re the right thing for us, but they’re not the right thing.
De’Vannon: Well, we can talk about it now. It sounds like what you’re referring to is that, that part of the book that I was reading where like karma, like maybe your husband gave you certain permissions, maybe you had, I think it read like you, you had loopholes and you used them, you know, quite severely.
Is that what you’re referencing right now? Having the liberty and taking it a bit too far?
Karma: Well I’m glad the book leaves leaves that space where it’s not quite clear where the fault is but as in the way I see it there, [00:11:00] the loopholes were big as in really ill-defined, and it was, it’s, it’s a fig leaf really, that my husband and I negotiated certain terms of, and it wasn’t really a negotiation.
We agreed on certain terms in which we can in which I could explore the topic of V D S M because I was interested in it, but he wasn’t right. We should tell the people, , we should give them a little bit of background. Right. I went in as a reporter reporting on a story about religion in kink. Joshua and his partner, master Joshua and his partner were the people who let me in.
I was writing about an event that took place in their venue. Once I went to that event and spoke to the people and witnessed what happened, it became clear to me that my interest goes beyond the professional in B D [00:12:00] S M. And shortly after it became clear to me that my interest in Joshua goes beyond the professional as well, but we were kind of entangled.
It wasn’t, the boundaries were very blurry. Is it personal? Is it professional? Is it about being a journalist? Is it about my interest in B D S M? Is it about my interest in him? It was all kind of like mixed in. And of course, I’m married in a traditional marriage plus kids, and I don’t wanna risk that.
So I am trying on, on the other front, on my husband’s front to to be in a space where I’m not actually cheating. And, and it’s kind of like okay, I am doing th so. I keep reaching agreements with him, and the agreements keep falling short of reality because in reality, I’m already in love with him.
I fell in love with him very early on. So what was [00:13:00] happening was that it just wasn’t an honest,
it’s very hard to be honest when you don’t know what’s happening and when you are in a vortex, right? But that vortex created a situation where I really wanted something and that something was not allowed within the framework of a traditional marriage. And I kept tweaking the framework, but not being honest about my intentions or about what I really want, because at the time I didn’t know.
I just, I was exploring, discovering, and I got that permission to explore and discover. But within, you know, nothing more than a kiss and. Less than a kiss with another man. And that kind of was hard to keep , right?
De’Vannon: So,
Master Joshua: so, so you don’t, can I, can I throw in my half of [00:14:00] that e of the equation , right? No, because it’s, it’s like, it’s, it’s tough.
I was going through when she met me, I was going through a breakup. It was at a dissolution of a dynamic, right? They’re not really the same dynamics are power exchange relationships, where this case was a baby girl in the daddy dom this is master slave. There’s dom sub, there’s all types of power exchange relationships where the focal point is the energy, the power exchange differential.
So I was going through a breakup, and this was around the Me Too movement when I first started. Now, the Me Too movement was very necessary, and the bad actors, everyone got called out. and over time we went from bad actors to bad people to bad relationships. And it got weaponized At a point I was subjected to a weaponized me to dissolution and [00:15:00] she came into the class that we were teaching the round table discussion around B D S M and religion, which believe it or not is, is they’re, they’re two peas of the same two peas in a pod.
So dealing with that while still hosting events, while still trying to provide service to the community. Cuz when you’re accused of something like that, no one wants to hear it from you. Right. Everyone. And I understand the believe the victim approach. I too, when as event as an event producer, I have to hold space for the victim.
Right. And I believe what you’re saying, what I am also responsible, especially in this lifestyle, which is heavily defined by integrity, is I have to ask the other party what happened. I have to because I need to hear the whole story to find out what’s going on. Because it’s our responsibility if we’re gonna keep the community safe from all types of situations, right?
We can’t just pick and choose. Leadership [00:16:00] requires doing the hard work. So I had no platform still doing what I do because this is what I do. This is my, I found purpose in my journey through B D S M and holding space for folks to find safety and self-expression and to, to dive into their sexuality is important for me because there’s liberty in that I was shut down and Karma was interested and curious about the lifestyle.
So I gave her space and I gave her all my information, everything I could provide her information with, I would. And then she caught wind of the accusations. You wanna take it from there, ?
Karma: Well you read the book so you know, , but what happened was I started exploring this world through Master Joshua, right.
Attending a little bit more events being a little bit more involved on a personal level and getting a taste [00:17:00] which really kind of threw me off personally. It was such a shocking discovery. It, it really impacted me to, I, I read about it in fiction books, so I kind of assumed that this whole lifestyle was fiction, , cuz I never saw it in real life until I met him.
And then the whole discovery of it was kind of like, it, it was just walking headlong into a train for me. And then, so I’m trusting him as a guide during this period, which is very brief. Just a matter of days or weeks. and very soon I come across one of the people I interviewed about the King and religion story told me, well it’s a more interesting story to examine the impact of me too on the king scene.
Take the accusation against Mr. J Master Joshua, for example. I’m like, whoa, whoa, hang on. What accusations against Master Joshua? And so he [00:18:00] sent me the link to the accusations which were on Fe Life, which is kind of like the Facebook Forsters mm-hmm. . And I began following up on them and my first step was to confront Joshua about them and then interview him and his then partner about them and.
You read the book. So, you know, as I went along, I let go of that story first because he and his partner were not interested in the Me Too story coming out at that time because of, they’ve already been through a lot with it. They were tired, his partners specifically. But I let go of it because I couldn’t find enough concrete evidence that would meet my that part is not in the book.
So I’m telling you there are certain standards for my publication to run with a story that is, that involves a [00:19:00] me too story. You need a certain amount of sources. They need to be verifiable to a certain extent, and their, their testimony needs to be. About some concrete me, some concrete things. Now there’s a lot of noise about a me too movement in the kink scene, but once you look at the complaints, the noise, the story changes because it’s sort of like the story becomes not oh, they are bad people out there using kink as a, as a way to abuse people’s consent.
But the story becomes, there’s a lot of confusion there about what consent means and how do you verify it, and when is somebody doing something wrong and when are they not? Because there were no clear parameters. So everybody who yelled abuser just, you know, okay, that person became an abuser and that’s it.
And there was no [00:20:00] recourse for them. That, that became my story. In the end. My, the story I wanted to write as a journalist, but I could not run with it as a journalist because I would be standing on the right, wrong side of history as a liberal and as a woman and as like nobody would publish it. And if they did publish it, I would get into a lot of backlash.
So I ended up publishing that. It’s not even a story because it, I ended up publishing that outlook in my book because as I was, it’s not just my story, right? It’s a part of history. It’s a part of a movement in history and it’s a part of history that impacted people I love very much. So I really wanted to do something with it as a journalist, and I couldn’t, so I did something with it as an author.
De’Vannon: You can’t speak one way, you gotta find another way. I appreciate your thoroughness and, and I agree. You know, nothing [00:21:00] in this life you know, is really ever a hundred percent, you know, and it’s somebody who has stood in front of a judge several times. I got like four felonies, you know I, I appreciate thorough research rather than jumping like to conclusions and things like that.
So there’s like literally no way every man who’s ever been accused of abuse has done it. It’s not possible. There has to be somebody lying somewhere, you know, or, and taking advantage of that movement. So
Master Joshua: you know, one of, one of the, one of the great things about our relationship is the accountability that she holds me to.
Right? And I’ve grown a lot and I’ve reflected a lot around my life, and I’ve, I’ve even come to admit the points. Where I was a horrible partner within those relationships. Not to the degrees that they made the accusations, but enough to know that I had a role in the love going from love to hate, right?
So it’s, and that’s what these relationships bring out, [00:22:00] is she’s held my feet to the fire because I have a role that I play. And it’s like, if I’m falling short, she, she’s gonna make sure that I’m aware of it.
Karma: I’m gonna quote him on that when it comes my time to make sure that you’re aware of it. , it’s not easy.
De’Vannon: Love it. It’s beautiful. So I wanted to read a snippet from the book. Thank you. I may because it’s, they’re very fun. I actually have a lot of quotes that I pulled from there that I thought were just like, so fun. So y’all, karma had mentioned earlier, like she was a reporter and everything like that.
Well, she had reached out to a friend Bec wanted to do this b s m religion story, like what she said. And and the response that Karma got from her friend included this here. She said and I quote she quickly lay out a feast for me heavy on the red meat. Seeks, seeks in diapers, clergy, men and kennels.
Yeah, I’m thinking like dog kennels ca seeds, ca seeds [00:23:00] getting fucked up the ass with bottles of kosher wine in quote. I thought that You know, I’m thinking, why can’t the Catholic church just admit that they do the same shit and be done with it?
Master Joshua: No, I have a, I have a client who’s been a priest for 40 years. Right. And it’s like legit. It’s everywhere. Everybody’s got something. Everybody’s got something.
De’Vannon: And then another part. How Karma was saying she was timid and shy. You know, it’s like the, the roles were, were flipped. You know, all the times you hear about the guy sneaking around with his porn and everything like that.
In this case you were that person s smut, as you called it. You had these dirty little habits and stuff like that, and you were hiding him from your husband. And I thought, well, what a role reversal. And and speaking of fe life, you understood that you had to establish a profile to, you know, as you, if you’re gonna be going down this road, and I’m gonna read how you felt about it at [00:24:00] first, so quote you said, but scrolling through the avatars on the list of attendees, an unsavory collage of inch by inch asses, tits, cunts, cocks, and combinations thereof, unease swept over me in quote.
I thought that was so beautifully written. . , thank
Master Joshua: you.
Karma: Thank you.
Master Joshua: I
De’Vannon: appreciate that and it’s very, very powerful that you, that we’re so transparent about going from like being uneasy about it to all immersed in it. And a big thing about, even as I, myself and my partner trying to approach, you know, the B D S M community, I think it’s super important to to ease into it.
You know? Cause in the book you talk about how it’s very complex, there’s a lot of layers to it. You started off as an observer, then you transitioned, you know, into participating, you know, as you got comfortable with it. And I think that that’s an important thing to point out. So Master Joshua, you’re technically speaking [00:25:00] professional, dominant.
And then a non-traditional sexual behaviors consultant are the two titles I found when I was
Master Joshua: researching. Yeah. Yeah. So essentially I do professional domination and N T S B counseling is B D S M without B D S M, right? Non-traditional sexual behavior. It’s for those who are afraid to call it B D S M, but they’re into something that isn’t so intense, right?
It all falls into the big umbrella that B D S M is, right? Fetish and kink. The desire for something we’re afraid to speak of, right? So I make myself accessible. I make this journey accessible in both perspectives, right? For someone who isn’t ready to say that they’re that far into it in B D S M or leather or kink, we can call it non-traditional sexual behavior.
Hey, it is what it
De’Vannon: is. now. Yeah. Now I’m gonna read a portion of. [00:26:00] Of of, of, from my research of, of you master Joshua. This is not specifically from the book, so, but that you stated that when you first started, you say, when I first started practicing B D S M and Earnest, I assumed that what interested me in kink was, well, the kink, you say the thrill, the rush I got from dominating other person made the Y seem pretty self-explanatory.
You go on to say, I used to play a lot of play at a lot of parties in the beginning before Scene, my bottom and I would talk, these talks were often uniquely candid. We were heading into a heightened situation and people wanted to let go of their masks, show me what was really going on inside. And you go on to say that by the end of.
It was people’s trust, you desire their permission to connect on a deeper, truer level. Kink was just the way in. Now, I’ve never heard B D S M describe like that before because when it’s presented, a lot of times all we see is the [00:27:00] kink. Speak to me about how it’s not really about the kink so much.
Master Joshua: So this, and this is gonna go back to my relationship with sex.
I enjoy kink, I enjoy the intensity, the director energy of it, being able to, and because domination looks at 20 different ways, right? The way I enjoy it is like Rocco sire, if you watch porn, , right? I really enjoy being a monster sexually. I also bought ’em, right? I’m also a sex submissive too, right?
I enjoy intense things. I enjoy being fisted, right? I enjoy licking shoes, so it’s a very visceral. Raw primal energy exchange for me. Now in order to access that, and this is where the title Sex Slave comes in what Karma’s given me is freedom to be who I want to be within the four walls of our intimacy.
[00:28:00] And that looks whichever way I want it to block because she’s given me the permission by calling me master and me calling her my slave. There’s a freedom, there’s a weightlessness of being able to express yourself sexually, that you can’t compare it to anything else. So knowing that that’s earned through trust, right?
That the, when I connect with people, I have a level of, of emotion and safety I want to feel. And if you don’t hit that bar, we’re probably not gonna be hanging out. And all that’s earned through trust. And that’s, that’s how I want to live my life, is surrounded by people who I can not have to wear as many masks as, as we often have to.
Hmm. And then, I mean, once you have that freedom, that permission, dude, you can do whatever you want, man. Let’s go. Let’s play, let’s be nasty. Let’s do what you want. I’m [00:29:00] game. Right, because there’s no judgment. I love how it’s beautiful.
De’Vannon: I love how relationship based it is. I do. Because you know when a lot of people think about sex, you know, so, so many times, you know, our mind defaults to like maybe apps or like quick hookups and things like that.
And it seems like the way that this is set up is getting away from like more superficial connections.
Do you feel like, you know, this community provide. As we might say, chosen family. You know, maybe somebody’s been rejected by their biological family. Can people find their way into the B D S M community and find the new community that accepts them or others have rejected them?
Master Joshua: I think that’s a false hope.
I think what people find in community is validation and affirmation that you’re not alone. What I don’t find in community more often than that is growth [00:30:00] beyond the validation, right? Once you hit that bar of what community is, and that’s set by the lowest common denominator. Now I say that because I put a lot of time into community and there’s not a lot of return that community gives back because a lot of people in community are there to take their validation and affirmation and experiences and not really contribute.
So that’s a lot of energy being put out. This comes to connection right now through the years of doing professional domination. I’ve spoken to and hosting events. I’ve spoken to thousands of people. I’ve done thousands of sessions. I’ve played thousands of times. I actually complained about my joints now because my shit’s hurt, man, , like my arthritis is kicking.
I got tennis elbow and stuff, and people laugh, but that shit for real, right? Because I can’t do it forever. What I learned in that time is how to connect with people, how to hear what people are saying, and keeping my mouth shut and processing. Right now, while we’re all different, we’re all very much the [00:31:00] same, right?
We fall into like six categories of people and we just have variables to each of us. What we’re all looking for is connection and validation, right? Being seen and being heard. What we need, if we’re going to find that piece, is to be put into positions where we’re questioned about our beliefs. We’re questioned about our journey and our directions, and that requires growth because you gotta be put in uncomfortable situations.
That’s the type of community I’m trying to build, where we. Know who we are. We know who we are not. Right? We we’re trying to unlearn what society’s taught us and we’re trying to dig into finding out who we are because no one taught us how to do any of this stuff. No one taught us how to have relationships.
No one taught us how to have sex. No one taught, taught us how to communicate , right? It’s simple. Communication is all boils down to communication. All I do is hold space for people and ask questions that have you reflect. And cuz you [00:32:00] know all the answers, I’m not, no one can teach you anything. All we can teach you, all we can help you do is ask you the questions that you can answer for yourself, right?
And transitioning from B D S M as a community, more towards human responsibility, right? As a community is where we’re going. And I’ve learned all of that through my own journey, through my relationships, through our relationships. Of the importance of integrity and trying to be as judgment free as possible.
Trying to always do, try, remember, try cuz we’re not superhuman. Trying to always just do the next right thing. Because if you do that in your relationships, you’ll see all of this is a achievable. You can achieve anything if you’re open and honest. Cuz what you’re doing there is you’re, you’re gauging your safety.
You’re ga gauging if you’re being seen and heard. [00:33:00] And if you don’t have that, why would you put your guard down? Right? So you gotta really reevaluate these things. I hope I didn’t go off too far off topic, and how,
De’Vannon: I mean, know how intelligent is all smart. It’s like mindful, mindful sexual behaviors rather than just reacting to the fact that you’re horny.
You know, I think it’s a smart way to do, you know, who is this person and do we have a connection? I think it’s brilliant. I think it’s bloody brilliant.
Master Joshua: You can also do it on, on like a, a hookup, right? Because I, I’ve taught a few classes at Claw. Claw is Cleveland Leather Annual Weekend. They teach it, it’s, it’s held in Cleveland every April.
And it’s the, in my opinion, the best large format education convention out there, especially for men particularly gay men interested in leather culture. And I’ve taught about hookup culture and how it deteriorates our connection, right? Because it’s more like playing jackpots. You, you, every time you hit that hookup, you get [00:34:00] that rush of endorphins and Oh my God, you’re gonna go hookup and then you’re gone and you’re depleted again and it’s empty.
So you go back on there and you’re trying to hit that hook up again. And it’s, it’s a cycle, right? And all you have to do is, it’s not really all you have to do, cuz it’s not, it’s, it’s work. It, it takes pr, it takes work is you have to. Be okay with not being who you want thought you were and doing some, find a mentor, find someone who’s at where you want to be, and develop a, a friendship.
Friendship, meaning have conversation without intention. Right? Meet people without thinking, what can I get from them? And just hold space. Hold space. Ah, holding space, meaning giving undivided attention and not judging. When you do that, and this can be with anyone, [00:35:00] right? If you do that without the intention, you’ll hear yourself reflected back in many different ways, in ways beyond you can even comprehend.
Now, imagine doing that in an arena where you are looking to meet someone because you have similar. Interest. Right? It doesn’t just have to be at a bar or a club, but let’s say you’re into pottery, right? Or you’re doing some Groupon Eatery event, or you go do movie, movie screenings, right? And you sit and you just have conversations about things that interest you hold space and listen for people, and you’ll see how easy it is to hear yourself in things that matter from the other person.
Not about sports, not about the movies, and not about TV shows, but about shit that matters, right? You open those doors and while they’re scary, you’ll see how much return you get back on that stuff. Mm-hmm. , you better
De’Vannon: preach. And, and, and by the way, I wanna say I love the nails. You talk with your hands a lot, so I [00:36:00] think it’s beautiful that you have those all dead up.
So you mentioned earlier that you feel like B D S M and religion are two peas in the same pod. Break that down for me please.
Master Joshua: So I define spirituality as how I treat myself through my belief system. My belief system is karma, right? I, what I put out is what I get back, meaning I drink alcohol. I know I shouldn’t because it’s bad for my body, right?
The right thing to do is to not drink alcohol, right? I smoke marijuana. It has medicinal purposes, but it still puts tar in the lungs. I know that, right? Who am I kidding? It’s not the right thing to do unless there’s di cer certain circumstances, but I do it recreationally, right? There’s lack of integrity in how I’m treating my body, and I’m aware of it, right?
That spirituality, how I treat myself under my belief system. Religion, as I define it, is how I treat others through my belief system right now, karma, right? If I treat you like an asshole, you’ll probably treat me like [00:37:00] an asshole back, right? If I do something nice for you, maybe you’ll do ni something nice for me.
Without in expectations, right? Intentions without expectations. Now, B D S M, and at this point, all the reli, reli, all the relationships I develop are built off of my belief system that B D S M works as a way to build deep and meaningful relationships, open and honest communication, transparency, integrity, doing the hard stuff that isn’t fun, right?
Having the hard conversations that aren’t fun. That’s my belief system. If I approach this with integrity, it’s going to come back with integrity. And if I don’t feel it, it’s not meant to be, but we’re not dealing with that level of integrity at this point, that petty shit, right? But you have to unlearn a lot of that stuff because what does it mean to feel safe, right?
So how I associate the two is [00:38:00] people choose what religion they put in there. Ju Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Catholicism. Right? That’s your belief system. Now the difference between talking, the talking, walking the walk is another big thing, right? Because you can say you’re of any of these religions, I can say I practice B D S M, but it doesn’t mean I practice that shit safely or correctly.
Right? Who’s not saying, I’m not using my knowledge to manipulate the situations. Wow. That kind of sounds like religion. , right? because that’s it. It’s all about human relations. That’s all life is about, is human connections. Hmm. What did that was the first time I said that shit like that. Wow. I gotta have to play that shit back.
Hopefully
De’Vannon: you’re on the podcast . What a deep thinker you are. Master Joshua. Yeah. Things come out of us when we need it to.
Master Joshua: I found my connection to God through this journey. I mean, it’s faith, right? The faith that if I continue doing the right thing, it’ll come [00:39:00] back. Mm-hmm. the faith of. . When I need something, it’ll be provided.
This, the faith of, they won’t disappoint me because I won’t disappoint them. Right. It’s like we’ve invested a lot of time and energy into building this. And it’s not a house of cards. This shit’s built out of steel and brick . Oh, that’s right. I’m all hyped up, man.
Karma: Finally, somebody wants to hear about religion.
Master Joshua: It’s crazy cuz I, I would’ve never seen myself here. I’m one of those guys. I was, I’m Latino, right? I grew up in New York, east Harlem. I pushed religion aside at an early age because you couldn’t prove it to me. You can’t prove it to me. What, how, what are you gonna prove to me? Nothing. What I learned it through was consistency in the return of doing the right thing and that that.
Now, I’ve touched the iron many times, , right? But the point is, am I changing my behavior after I touched the iron, right? We can’t just repent on Sunday and say we’re all [00:40:00] forgiven. That shit doesn’t work like that. We’re just, that’s a joke, right? Can I give you one philosophy? One theory. One theory. Just one theory.
East Easter Sunday, I was coming out of the train and this guy goes, Jesus died for your sins. I’m like, Jesus did not die for my sins. I don’t know Jesus. Jesus doesn’t know me when they say he died for your sins. I said, maybe. Maybe he died for the sins of inaction, right? Of all the people that watched him, he get crucified for doing the right thing and they fell to do the right thing and that’s why he died for their sins of inaction.
So maybe the lesson to take away from that shit is if you see something wrong, do the right thing.
Karma: Theta says it all the time. , you see something, say something.
Master Joshua: Okay. Ah, sorry. I’m gonna drink my water now. .
De’Vannon: No, you are so good, man. Like I love, I love me a good deep thinker, you know? And wouldn’t I agree with everything that someone is saying?
What I, what I always agree with is the passion and the conviction, [00:41:00] you know, behind it. And I can tell you believe every word that’s coming outta your mouth. And I know that that translates to your, to your submissive and your slaves and everything like that, you know, confidence. That’s something I love in a man.
You know, it’ll make you follow ’em to the end of the earth. Oh yeah. .
Karma: Yeah, Uhhuh. You get it. You know how it works.
De’Vannon: You know, so Carmen, so, so something that I read that you wrote in, in one of your profiles, probably on matchmaker, maybe on one of the websites, was that this lifestyle, referring to bds, the B D S M lifestyle is one of the most sensationalized and least understood factions of the L G B T Q I two s plus community.
Right. I wanted to dwell on this for a moment, because I know when a lot of people think bd s m, they don’t necessarily place that in the plus of the L G BT Qia A so, and I don’t, to my knowledge, I mean, [00:42:00] are most people who practice BD s m in our community, is it sometimes separate? Is it always together?
Help me understand.
Karma: I’m gonna give you my, this is master Joshua’s question, but that’s his answer. No, no, go ahead. But I’m gonna give you my outlook. P D S M was something I was interested in, but once I began exploring it and living it as some, as, as a submissive, as a slave, it’s not a, well, I, this is just how I enjoy fucking, it’s not just, this is, it’s an inherent part.
It’s, it’s a identity, it’s a sexual identity, and it’s a personal identity, and it’s a setup of how I would like to interact with people on, it has parts of it that are integral to who I am. [00:43:00] It should not be viewed as a I say it’s as much of a, an identity as transgender. Transgender is, or gay is, or lesbian ins.
It is not a game. It’s a peoplehood in a way. . And for me, and, and it, it has very concrete aspects, right? Because for example, if I try to to advertise my book on Amazon so people could see it, so it would get some, you know, just because I exist and I want people to know about the book I wrote obviously.
So if I wanna advertise on Amazon, I can’t because the word B D S M is not they do not advertise anything that has B D S M in the title because B D S M is a perversion, a sexual thing, [00:44:00] a and they don’t run with that, right? But transgender is okay, you transgender has its own category and is promoted as such.
And in a way it comes to, I have a truth about myself that I cannot speak. Because V D S M is not acceptable as other sexual identities are. Right? I can’t, I can’t be who I am openly. I have to, I can’t talk about this almost anywhere, right? I am, I’m poly, right? I, I have a husband and a master and I can’t talk about that anywhere.
And I am kinky, right? I, I, I like sex to involve certain things that other people do not like. And I can’t talk about that. And both of these things are huge parts of who I am and what I do with my life, but I don’t have any permission to approach it as such. However, there is a [00:45:00] community, and there is, and there are people who do this as, as a lifestyle and as an expression of self, an expression of identity.
So in my eyes, it is just a matter of time until B D S M or the leather community or however it ends up calling itself or unifying itself, will become part of that umbrella of the L G B T Q A and it will be the plus, right? It’s it somewhere in that plus is our place in humanity. And that’s why I identified the book as such, because it really is, if you look at the larger picture of things at history, at what’s happening, that’s the purpose of my book, to show people that this is, this is an identity and a legit one, and it belongs into a group of people and this is the group it belongs to.
De’Vannon: Yeah. That and [00:46:00] master Joshua, was there anything you wanted to add to that?
Master Joshua: Yeah, because , I, I have the like the technical stuff, so while. And it’s evolved a lot over the last X amount of years. It’s, it was hugely segregated between gay pansexual and pansexual is more heteronormative and the queer community you had smaller subsets within those, with the times everyone’s evolved.
Mostly everyone’s evolved to where everyone’s promoting inclusivity, but the vibe still changes with every event that you go to. The, what we’re trying to do within that event space and what people come to us for is a level of equality where people are just, again, people are just people. We have the, the name of the intensive that we host [00:47:00] is called People Before Kink. And it’s like, it’s all about getting to know the person next to you because I.
I have a personal agenda around B D S M and getting it to fall under the Civil rights protection. Right. To be identified as an identity because I, we’re not, we’re born this way. Right? We have these desires, these relationship developments. Like I identify as a leather sexual because I need to get to know you and once I get to know you, I’ll determine if I like you or not.
It has nothing to do with what’s between your legs. Nothing to do with what’s between your legs. Nothing to do with how you identify. I don’t care. Anything else other than are you a good person? And if I can vibe with you, I probably wanna fuck . Right? But it’s like, don’t put on a mask. Don’t lie to me.
Right. I [00:48:00] have no agenda with I I have, I, I just wanna, I just wanna witness your existence. Tell me about yourself. And just on that alone will tell me which way we’re gonna go. Right. And I, I found that shit out in 2019 at, at Palm Springs pride March. I was standing in the back of the chute. Did I tell you this story?
Mm-hmm. and everyone’s waving their flags. And I’m tight, right? Because my relationship with my orientation has always been up in the air. I, like, I’ve, I, I don’t identify as straight, I don’t identify as gay. I, I’m, I fell somewhere in bi pansexual, like, eh, but it always fell short and everyone’s waving their flags and I’m like, but does the genitalia really fucking determine, does this really determine like, what determines for me?
And I said, well, I’ve been doing this process for years now and this is what matters to me, determines whether I wanna hook up with you or not. Cuz I’ve met enough people where they, once they opened their mouth, I was like, that’s a done deal. I just spent all this time meeting them, talking to them, and then I’ve then fucking [00:49:00] box of rocks.
Like I have no interest in them. . So I changed the way I approach to this lifestyle, and this is how we develop relationships. Once you have the taste for being seen and heard, you are not gonna settle for nothing else. If, if you do your sac, your sacra, if you’re doing yourself, you’re doing yourself harm.
Right? By not doing what it, just being seen and heard, right. And learning the value of the roles that we play. So it’s like,
I believe it’s that ingrained into us. It’s about once you, we realize that it’s about the connection we’re making, that is our lifestyle.
De’Vannon: I look forward to your book coming out. Master Joshua
Master Joshua: Yeah, no, we’re I’m working on it cuz. Something that just came to mind. I was visiting a, a [00:50:00] mistress friend of mine out in Pennsylvania and she’s been doing it as long as I have and it was such an amazing connection to meet someone who is on the same page of, cuz once you’ve been doing this shit for so long, you’ve been wearing your mask for too long, your teacher hat.
And we’ve gotten to the point where we’ve taken it off and it’s like, we need to continue our own personal journeys. Dom domination aside, what does that mean? Now we got to share that space and vulnerability with each other was incredible. We also got to share perspectives of what are we doing with this knowledge And what I’m walking away, what I walked away with is creating a power exchange economy where just like our people before kink intensives and our other personal development intensives the idea behind.
And all of it is how do we help you find your version of what you’re looking for? How do we help you tap into your dominance? How do we help you tap into your submission and what does it look like and what does [00:51:00] structure look like? And all that’s gonna be built and taught off of philosophy, safety, and techniques.
Right now the book is gonna come out based off of that too, cuz there’s a lot to say about this. That I believe bd, s m could be a form of therapy now, not only therapeutic as in the spanking and the relief that a person can get, but therapy with the understanding that the professional dominant understands the responsibility of the space that you hold.
The person is coming into you, you’re giving them, again, the undivided attention and you’re judgment free and you’re reflecting back to them that they’re okay and that they’re not broken. We also have the ability to connect with them on the, on the level of giving our own examples and life experiences that a lot of mental health professionals can’t.
They have to keep that wall up. So imagine you’re sitting with someone who you just told you deepest, darkest secrets and they didn’t even bat an eye. And then they said, you know what? I understand. I had an experience like that one time with broom. And then they just lay it out and you’re like, holy fuck, I’m [00:52:00] not broken.
I’m not wrong. What they’ve told me for the last 20 years was a lie. , right? Now that I’m talking about that level of therapy and healing, and then you walk into the therapeutic stuff. But we as the professionals have to understand the role that we play in all of it. You can’t just say, listen, this is what I’m doing.
And the only way you can do that is by doing the fucking work yourself. You have to go and you have to walk and you have to open the closets and you have to look in and you have to cry, and you have to have imposter syndrome e every other month, right? You gotta do all the ugly shit so that you can say the P, the point of suffering is on the other side of all that suffering.
You can say, you know what? I see you coming. Keep coming because you can survive. I did it. Just keep going. Right? You can provide that space. Dude, that’s all we’re doing. That’s all we’re doing. So that’s why I think it’s a form of therapy. Well,
De’Vannon: after that af after that sermon right there, I think it’s about time [00:53:00] I take off my top for you,
Master Joshua: I like it. I like it. So now we’re all at home. Can I, can I turn on, can I, can I take off my shirt? Whatever it is you wanna do. .
De’Vannon: So, sorry, I’m keeping in
Karma: mind .
De’Vannon: So this is the introductory piece of leather, one of the two, me and my boyfriend got when we started to experiment. And so I wanted to read a couple of chapter titles during this part cause I thought that they were so fun.
And you have masochism, knives, rope negotiation, the dungeon , you know, that was my
Karma: life at the time. That is my life. That is my life at the time now.
De’Vannon: And so I wanted to just read a few definitions. So we were talking, you were talking about how like your bottom and everything like that, and I love your [00:54:00] tattoos and the harness and everything. All very thoughtful and thought out. It was very intriguing to me to find some of the you know, like top and bottom and everything like that, those terms, you know, in the B D S M community.
Look, as far as I’m concerned, everyone’s welcome. B D S M. Come on and play with us too. You know, as you mentioned in the book, you know, karma, you mentioned, you know, it was like, it’s like coming out of the closet, you know, even, you know, like for you and I’m, and I was like, okay. You know, I don’t know that I’ve ever, you know, con stepped to that deep into the BDSM world to realize that people who really like, you know, that sort of lifestyle have have all these barriers too and all this judgment and so, As far as I’m concerned, come on and play with us.
I’m so happy that you go to Pride, you know, master Joshua and everything like that. I think it’s so inclusive and I, I feel like, like your book, karma is really, really, you know, for people who are in that situation where you were, you know, in a relationship feeling like [00:55:00] something’s missing. They don’t know what in, you know, how the hell were you gonna tell your husband?
And we’re gonna talk about that after I go over these Definition, Sarah. So I just wanna read them. So top you say in the context of B D S M A top is a term given to the individual who assumes the controlling or dominant role over a submissive participant or bottom. I get the sense that it doesn’t matter if it’s male, female, other, it is just like whoever.
And I think that that’s more comprehensive than how it is. You know, like in the gay community, seeing the definition of seeing is A B D S M scene is a pre-planned space where BD B D S M activities take place. It is als it al it, it, it also includes the participation of B D S M related activities like we were saying earlier.
There’s a lot of work and planning that goes into this sort of thing. Now, what interested me the most, so, and what I want y’all to talk about is the after. Now, this is particularly interesting to me. It says in B D [00:56:00] S M aftercare is the period of time after a scene in which partners attend to one another’s physical, emotional, and psychological needs.
Typically, the dominant partner in the scene will be the one caring for the submissive partner or partners. B D S M scenes are often very intense and can often be emotionally and psychologically draining. Physical injuries are also not uncommon during these scenes. Tell me about this aftercare and why it’s needed, honey.
Karma: Well, first we should source them. This came from kingley.com. The definitions are from kingley.com. And I was learning them as I was going. So for me, how. There was a discussion, how should I put them as, should it be in glossary? Should it be at the end of the book? But I put them as I learned them, right?
I would go after, each time I met Joshua, I’m online. I’m doing my research. I’m like, what the fuck happened to me right now? Let me see. And, and that’s [00:57:00] and that’s how all these things were, were pulled. Now of course he is the professionals, so he is the one who should be talking about what these things are and how you properly employ them.
But in the place, in the book that you came about, the place where aftercare was mentioned, it was in the context of a party, right? Master Joshua was playing with another man. And, and it was a very intense scene. It involved breath play. and the person at the other end of it, he was, he was barely standing when we were done.
He was not standing when we were done. He was, he was. When they were done master Joshua took him off the restraints and the person just kind of collapsed in, into his arms. And it master Joshua you don’t see it here, but he has a pretty smallish frame. And the person [00:58:00] was much bigger than him. And when that person fell into his arms, they both had to sit down cuz master cuz he couldn’t hold him.
And what happened was he kind of master Joshua, kind of propped him up in his arms and, and put his held his head in his lap and kind of just caressed his head for, and just held his hands and caressed him. And it looked very, it was very tender and very peaceful and not at all something that I.
Ever thought of in the context of bdsm. And I think that while the whole party, you know, the whole thing was exciting and mesmerizing, I think that was the moment where I kind of like fell in love both with the lifestyle and probably was Joshua because it was so just tender and, and naked. Like the, it’s, it, it had a, a, a gravity [00:59:00] to it of like holding a baby or, or a tenderness, just there was so much warmth and, and empathy in it that it felt like the height of, of, of what a human relationship could be.
Right. And there was, so, there was such a sweetness to it, right? The, the other person has surrendered, the conqueror has taken what he, it wasn’t clear who was taken and who was given anymore, but there was just a, a comfort there. He was comforting him. . And I was like, how does that work? That person just beat the other person till he was senseless and now he’s, he’s holding him and he’s comforting him.
Like, like that big man is, is like a child, like a baby. And it was incredibly sweet. And later I researched it and came up with, what is that? Why, why did that happen? What, what is that about? And so I came across aftercare and I’m like, oh, there’s a term for it. Okay, great. And that’s the term [01:00:00] I included in my book, but really it’s seeing it and, and that that’s what got me hooked.
I would say more than, more than all the rest because it’s so
De’Vannon: beautiful. Interesting. So since we’re wearing these harnesses, what is it, you know, how, how, how are these used? In the, you know, in, in the community and, you know, why is the leather such a draw? But I see these harnesses everywhere in all the gay bars, you know, everywhere I go.
What’s the big deal with the harnesses? People want to know.
Master Joshua: I think, I think now it’s just a symbol, right? I, I think, I think it’s a fashion statement is mainstream, which is cool. I’m thankful for it because it allows it to be more okay to go out in public like it granted I have a lot more leather than, than, than a piece or two, but being able to normalize bd, s m like 50 shades good, bad or, or different?
It, it put B D S M [01:01:00] into the spotlight. Yes. As time has progressed, and we have other artists who have come forward with harnesses and other le leather outfits. I mean, there’s designers out there that rock leather 24 7. I think it gets lost in the fashion that sometimes you can use these to fuck Right.
And use those. You see the bar across your chest, you have a similar one on the back. Yeah. Right. And they’re made outta leather cuz leather is very durable. Right. So imagine being off on all fours and using the harness as straps. As handles. Okay. You can also, you can also lead around on the leash. Kinda like a range.
Karma: Yeah. right
Master Joshua: On a horse. Nah. And yeah, you’re not going anywhere cuz those are built to hold
De’Vannon: Yes. .
Master Joshua: I mean they look cool too. Right. But like, the one I haven’t like here in the back, my,
[01:02:00] it’s, it’s it’s meant to , it’s meant to hold, to be
Karma: sturdy. That was the first time I actually got to grab the shotgun .
De’Vannon: I’m so happy. Oh, that’s how it’s . I’m so happy that was a part of your first time experience. .
Master Joshua: Look at that. Four years later, five years later, we still happen. Seriously, . Yeah. Put a strap on.
De’Vannon: So then the last thing I wanna talk about, and I thank y’all so much for your time today. I appreciate it immensely. Time is one resource that we cannot get back or create anymore. So I appreciate that when people sit down to give of their time, to me it means everything. And I humbly am thankful for it and I humbly accept it.
So in that, in that last cha, you know, chapter in the book, you know, you were really, really giving a lot of like heavy emotion. You know, you were talking about how the burden of this, I guess you could say, like [01:03:00] maybe the secret life or the life you wanted to live, you know, was getting to you, you were like, I so unhappy.
and then you’ve got an exacto knife, and then you begin to cut yourself. And you showed these, these cut wounds to master Joshua. And without really saying much, you know, he, he did. You know, he, he affirmed that he was going to take on this problem for you and then his solution was to Cru was to make you his submissive and to be enslave them for you to become, for him to become your master.
You know, in the book you talk about how you were so, like relieved that you’ve gotten down and kissed his feet and gratitude. So, because I felt like this book is really, really written for people in like similar situations, whether they may find themselves in those situations today or in the future, I really want you to talk about just how unhappy you [01:04:00] were that it brought you to the point of self-mutilation and how what he offered you.
Seemed to be like instant relief for you.
Karma: Well
I was cheating on my husband and I was living a lie. And
I, Joshua and I were too deeply involved. For me to walk away from it, walking away from it was just, it, it felt too much like walking away from my own story. Right. I was, I was invested in it. I wanted it, I did not wanna walk away from it. And every time I walked away from it, it just resulted in me coming back because this was, this is my story, this is what I’m going through.
It’s not. At some point, I stopped viewing it as a mistake and started viewing it [01:05:00] as my own personal odyssey. I cannot walk away. Uh, It’s just like a hero walking away from his movie. You can, there’s always a point where he wants to, there’s always a point where he tries to, but , he’s in the movie, so he stays and he sees the, the, the adventure through.
So I couldn’t walk away from that. But I also did not have the, the courage to step up to my husband and tell him, this is what I’m going to, because I see I’m, I was, I came from a, I didn’t know much about this world going in. And for me, to me, the fact that Joshua has other partners, other women meant that he’s not all in there for me, right?
He has other women. It’s not, I’m probably not that important. So how can I risk my whole family life? . You know, there, there was always that thought of like, you know, if I, if I, if I fail [01:06:00] and, and my husband leaves me, and like if I tell him the truth and it ends up in a divorce mm-hmm. , how am I gonna, will Joshua be there for me?
Will there be anything left? Like well Joshua be there for me, you know, tomorrow. like, cuz I don’t, it wasn’t really clear how much, how, how deep his commitment was. Because coming from a monogamous world, how do you judge commitment? You judge it by you’re my only one, right? That’s not true. In this case you judge it by I love you more than anybody.
It’s not true in this case. I, you judge it by I’ll give you all. My time, I’ll give you it. It just doesn’t work that way when you’re in a, in, in other kinds of [01:07:00] partnerships. And that made me very wary of him. Plus again, he, he was going through a lot of difficult, his world was forming at that time.
He was going through a lot of difficult transitions. I saw a lot of aspects of him that are now, you know, outgrew them. But he was finding his way back then, and I was like, I, I don’t know if I can trust him to catch me when I fall. Because if, if I have to lose my children in my home, it’ll be a really heavy fall.
So I wasn’t so, I didn’t dare tell my husband. My husband was largely looking the other way. And most, and most things, there were a lot of lies that I didn’t admit to. But there were a lot of questions he didn’t ask. And I kind of lived in that space. , but waking every morning to a lie, it will kill you.
It will kill you. It was killing me. You know, it was just, there’s nothing [01:08:00] really, it’s so corrupting that there’s really nothing to do, but to cut yourself. Because just every day, waking up and, and, and just deepening the groove of, of, I’m going, no, I’m, I’m doing something deeply wrong to everybody. It’s, it’s not a way to live.
So it came to a point, and when I said to Joshua, I, I, I, I need help . I need help. I, I’m, I’m at ends with, I, I, I don’t, you know, one day I’m gonna cut too deep. . So he, he said, okay here’s what we’re gonna. You can be my submissive. I’ll give you that call. That was the commitment that I, when he said, you will be my submissive.
You’re pro, you’re gonna be my responsibility. I knew that. [01:09:00] Whatever, if I do what he says, it’s gonna be all right.
Master Joshua: Can I, can I answer that real quick? Yeah. Now, for a good chunk of the relationship, in the beginning, I thought it was adversarial because she was a reporter, right? And I had these accusations over my head and I felt everyone was out to get me.
Now, I played the safety of I’m gonna show you exactly who I am, and I hope for the best, right? And time moved forward. Now, when it came to the collar, what I need from you, if you’re going to be my submissive, is I need you to obey me , right? Trust me that if I give you, A direction. It’s for your, it’s in your best interest, right?
I’m not gonna make you do shit that I wouldn’t do myself. I’m not gonna put you against anything morally, right? If you have conflict morally, let me know and we will work on it. We’ll talk through it and figure out what the wall is so [01:10:00] that I can understand what these boundaries are. I will never steer you wrong because trust is the most important thing to me that, that con connection, right?
And we’ve, she was my safe space for so long. And to watch someone you love because of the safety she provided, watch her deteriorate. She wouldn’t follow my suggestions. And it was like, I can’t keep with the frustrations of giving you guidance. I can’t be that person of giving you guidance and bring this frustration onto my life if you’re not gonna follow what I say.
So if you want to be recognized, if you want this connection to be recognized, , I need you to tell your husband everything. I need you to trust me and not doubt my word. If I say karma jump, you say, how high? Because I’m not, I’m not gonna put you in a bad position. I will always do [01:11:00] what’s in your best interest.
And that’s, that’s the value of the collar, that’s the value of submission and dominance, right? Because I don’t want, Dominic, I didn’t want, I didn’t want power exchange. Why would I wanna be more responsive? I’m, I’m trying to unfuck myself, right? Life just hit me, right? I realized people, my experience was my twenties.
I was really still a teenager. My early thirties, I realized that no one knew what the fuck was going on and that everyone’s winging it, and then I’m trying to get my feet under me, right? And that doesn’t happen. Once you figure that shit out, that’s when you’re like, oh my God, who am I? ? And you start working on that, and then you have.
These dissolution of dynamics, your fur world is falling around falling apart around you. You meet someone who’s holding space, like it’s, it’s all this stuff in momentum. Right? And no one really thinks of it as a singular event, right. Just as we’re talking about it. That’s a, that’s a, a tsunami of shit [01:12:00] happening one life milestone after the
Karma: next.
Yeah. It was a really, really turbulent period for, for both of us. We got just caught in, in each other’s turbulences. But I guess for me it was, it was sort of like sticking out, sticking the ground and saying like, this is what I’m holding onto, right. This is of all the flying around pieces of all the, my work my husband, my family, the lies, the parties.
I was getting pretty heavy with V DSM as sort of a Both an addiction and a distraction and like there was a lot, you know, just a lot of stuff flying up in the air. So having this to say,
I am his submissive and I do what I say and I don’t question, and, and it was [01:13:00] a huge relief because it, it takes the navigation of this situation off my shoulders. I don’t have to question what’s right or what’s wrong, not morally, morally, I know, and if I have any problems that I come. But it’s sort of like, you know, when you’re, when you’re in a really difficult situation where your own wellbeing is in danger, you can’t really see well, and you question yourself and, and you’re, and I was already like burdened by guilt and self deceit and lies.
And I was like, I questioned myself to the point that I was, you know, on the path of self-destruction. So, To somebody who, who is questioning himself and, and really not liking himself. He can’t make good decisions because there’s no working relationship between you and you at that point. So handing over the reins and saying, this is who I am.
I am a submissive because I, I love him. That’s the one thing I don’t [01:14:00] question. I love him. I’m crazy about him, and I wanna follow what he tells me because he said, you’re mine. And the moment he says, you’re mine, that gives me a place in the world. And I know , who I was doubting myself. I didn’t know who I am, but I had full confidence in him.
And if I’m his, I’m gonna be his, the best, the best his I can be. Like, for him, I’d be a good person. I wasn’t being a good person for me, but for him, I’d be a good person. Like, and I do what, what he tells me, because, you know, I’m proud of this like, I wasn’t being a good wife, but I’m gonna be a damn good submissive, like the best I can be, right?
So when he told me he came up with a plan, right? He was like, what do you need to fix in your home in order to feel, why, why aren’t you telling your husband I’m scared? Why are you scared? Because everything is in such a shitty shape right now that I can’t bear the idea of stepping up to the plate. [01:15:00] So what do you need to fix for it not to be in a sh shitty space?
So, 1, 2, 3, 4. Okay, so do 1, 2, 3, 4, and then bring, you know, broke it down to pieces. Did it got to that point? Then we started talking about how do you come up to a person and say something like that. Pretend, pretend I’m him. Talk to me like I’m him. Let’s have that conversation. And we had it over and over again until I could, you know, until.
I didn’t come to the door and then ran away. You know, there were so many times I tried to talk about it and couldn’t until it was done. And once that was done, once that barrier was crossed, it was like, you know, moving from living in a parallel real reality and what reality should have been merged right now.
I’m like, oh my God, this is real now this is a real, every he knows, everybody knows, and this has become [01:16:00] not a, some kind of shameful secret affair, but a reality in, in all our worlds. And once that happened, it wasn’t too hard to do it again. Right? It wasn’t too hard to, to say, for him to tell me, now this is what you need to do to step over this gap.
What’s stopping you now? Tell me. And he would ask and I would tell him, and he is like, okay. So what do you need to do to get over it? And I would tell him, and then he was like, okay, do it . And then that just kept happening again and again, and again and again. Till, till. We are at a point where right now, I’d say I’m at a point where I’m like, I do it with my, he’s still there for me, but I do it for myself.
De’Vannon: thank you for sharing that. That’s so like, I’m so glad that you’re, that you, that you’re happy now. I get a good happiness vibe off of you. Thank you. So Jo, master Joshua, how many [01:17:00] slaves do you
Master Joshua: have? So now , I’m not, I’m not a collector. I swear to God I’m not a collector, but I have two slaves. I have Slave Karma and I have Slave Mary.
I have my Kaji Evie, I have my baby girl Sweta and I have my mama Bear Cat. They’re all my partners in varying degrees and we all have different levels of investment into our own journeys and relationships and collectively.
De’Vannon: Okay. And then Karma, the, the Nicole, or do you wear that 24 hours a day, seven days a week, or are you allowed to get off at times?
Okay.
Karma: Only when I’m with him the rest of the time is a wedding rink because out of respect, cuz like you, like you could know from the book, my husband didn’t choose this lifestyle. He accepted it [01:18:00] because he wants me and his life and he wants to keep his family together. But when I’m with my husband, I, he is the priority, right?
And, and I do my best to, and, and this is with Master Joshua’s agreement as well as in when I’m with my family, my family is the priority. So no collar except this is, this is still, I’m still wearing this mask. Right? This is still something of a secret identity.
Master Joshua: The, the intention behind our relationship is to make her the best person that she can be, the best wife, the best mother the best human.
We support each other on our goals. With the time that she held for me, the space that she held for me over that period of time, she, she’s one of the very few people that know me best inside and out. And like, she’s more than like sex slave. The role sex slave is [01:19:00] to honor the freedom that she gives me intimately and the trust that comes with it.
Cause it’s not just for fun. It’s a lot of fun, but it’s, we’ve, we’ve put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get to this point where the tidal slave is not a submissive. It’s not a weak, it’s not a weakness. Right. It’s submission out of trust. It’s it’s slave ship out of, out of investment.
Okay.
De’Vannon: I feel you on that. So you mentioned 50 Shades of Gray earlier, and I remember from watching that, that he didn’t, I, I think his name was Christian Gray if I, if I recall correctly. Yeah. Christian, Christian Gray. He did not allow Anastasia to use drugs. So was that kind of like just his thing or is that kind of common in the community where drugs are not mixed with B D S M?
Master Joshua: So everyone has their own [01:20:00] choice around that. Everyone has their own practices. The idea behind it, the con the concept and understandably so, is once you are out of functioning mind, right, once you’re inebriated in any degree, you can’t give consent. Right. So to be intoxicated or to have any altered state of mind, you can’t give consent.
Now, some people negotiate upfront and then in introduce the chemical to the, to the play. At the end of the day, it all boils down to personal responsibility, right? Because you can, you can say whatever you want, people are gonna do what they’re gonna do. Be mindful of the numbing, intoxicants medications, particularly pain meds.
Do not do B D S M and take pain meds. Don’t do ’em like, be responsible people. A lot of people do dumb shit if you can’t give consent. If you can’t be mindful and [01:21:00] present in your body, it’s most likely a bad choice, right? I, and some people need a couple drinks. Some people like to smoke. I know the psychedelics introduced, there’s different levels of narcotics introduced.
People do it. It all boils down to personal responsibility and personal choice. It was not a
Karma: no-no for me. It’s not a, there’s no, you can’t do practically anything .
Master Joshua: Yeah. What we, what we share with each other is the way our, our res, our relationship works, is yes. And until no, like I have permission to do what I would like when I would like it, unless it’s a no.
Right. And I’m okay with that. I’m I, yes. Tell me no, because if there’s something wrong, I need to know.
Karma: Right. And it happened where it was two days ago when I said no, and then he stopped. And I was like, well, that was a no, but not a red. You don’t have to listen.
Master Joshua: Yeah, yeah. Cause we have safe words too. But [01:22:00] it’s like, no, no, but then take me, take me right that
Karma: I was like, no, no.
And he stopped. And I was like, well,
De’Vannon: I love how childlike and play for y’all with each other. . So, so someone’s in New York and they have curiosity about this sort of thing. Is there anywhere you might direct them to go check out or do they need to go on fe life first? Or what do you recommend?
Master Joshua: What I would suggest is you can hit up any of our our websites, master joshua.com.
Kink collective.net, that’s k i n k collective.net ss dce.org. That’s not kink related, but that’s all, that’s personal development related. Also anywhere on social media under Master Joshua NYC or Kink Collective there as well. And we’re more than happy to field any questions you may have, cuz there’s four weeks per month, almost five, sometimes five, and there’s always [01:23:00] something going on.
So reach out to us and I’m more than happy to direct you in whichever way would be best
De’Vannon: suited. Okay. And with that I’ll let the two of you have the last word. Whatever it is you would like to say to the world, just go on ahead and say it.
Karma: Surviving, surviving Master Joshua, the book is on Google, surviving Master Joshua, the B D s m, memoir of an Unfaithful Wife by Karma Said, and just Google it wherever you want to get it from.
It’ll show up on Google. You can always get it directly from Amazon, but get it through Google first. And there’s surviving master joshua.com. And if you are an author and you write non-fiction b seminar Eroica, then I would like to publish you or help you get published in one way or another. And that’s colonel culture publishing.com.[01:24:00]
You can contact me
Master Joshua: through there. Any words of wisdom for, for the listeners. If
Karma: there’s, if there’s ever a conflict between what you want and who you are and the rules of the world, the way they get there is just don’t lie. Do what you wanna do, but don’t lie. And and if you did lie, find your way out of it because I’d say lying was my greatest enemy.
Hmm.
Master Joshua: Say yes more, as long as it doesn’t conflict with you morally. And always do the next right thing,
Karma: right? Yeah. Like in frozen too.
Master Joshua: also give yourself permission to explore your body. It took me almost four decades to [01:25:00] say, Joshua, you, how can you allow someone to penetrate you if you don’t even know how to do it yourself?
Right. Give yourself permission to explore your body in whichever way you want. It’s your meat vessel, right? For your soul. You, you are okay, right? It doesn’t mean anything because you want to, to be with yourself. Make love to yourself, be with yourself. All right? That’s it. I’m done.
De’Vannon: as a mama. RuPaul would say, if you can’t love yourself, how in the hell you gonna love anybody else?
Can I get it? up in here. . . Thank you all so much for coming on y’all. All of those links they mentioned, I’m gonna put in the show notes plus a couple of others that it’ll be there for easy reference. If you’re driving your car somewhere, you don’t have to scribble it all down. I’m gonna put it in the show notes.
And with that we’ll see you all next time. Have a fantastic fucking day, and just remember that everything is gonna be all right, .
Master Joshua: Thank you.
De’Vannon: [01:26:00] Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.
My name is De’Vannon, and it’s been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right.
